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Old 04-21-2021, 04:53 AM   #21
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Default Re: Glamor

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Is Disguise a makeup talent or an acting talent?
I would say a bit of both.
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Old 04-21-2021, 05:23 AM   #22
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Glamor

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'd be interested to know, Shostak, if the updated text changes your answer about how Glamor works.
Yup. Your answer in the 5th post in this thread seems right to me.

Yet this still bothers me. Genre literature has magic making one character look just like another--Uther, for instance, being made to appear like Gorlois so that he could sleep with Igraine. Then there's the oddity that TFT's standard Illusion can be of a particular person and only costs 2 ST. Why, then, can't this more powerful illusion do the same? Perhaps a second Glamor on top of the first?
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Old 04-21-2021, 06:40 AM   #23
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Glamor

Henry's last post is pretty much what I had in mind when I sat down to write this.

Here's my current interpretation.

(*) Glamor can change the appearance of your clothing. It has to at least change the size to fit and I can't see why it would be limited to size.

(*) I'm not sure whether it changes the appearance of gear in hand at the time the spell is cast.

(*) Glamor must have some limits in terms of what kinds of critters you can pose as. I think it will be limited to critters who have roughly the same shape and movement as you. A human can't look like a wolf or even a bear (unless walking upright), but you could make your toy poodle look like a wolf (which would have some uses, though he wouldn't act like a wolf).

(*) You can use Glamor to look like a particular person. No one can see that this isn't your real appearance, but in order to convince that you really are that person, a Disguise roll is required. As usual, a 1d penalty for being unskilled, but this is effectively countered by the 1d bonus for using Glamor and there's no need for an hour preparation.

Simply changing appearance is one thing and Glamor can do that very well. Posing as your target is another. If you want to look like the Duke, you won't fool his wife very easily, a 6d roll (sorry, Uther Pendragon). A 3d roll for a typical subject.

I don't think I'd apply the penalty for mimicking another species, but I'm not sure. The appearance should be more or less spot on, at least if the wizard knows the species well. The question is whether an orc behaves noticeably different than a human and that difference is hard to mimic unskilled.

(Note: I'm not using "mimic" here in the sense of the talent, which is limited to voice mimicry, but if you don't have the Mimic talent, you won't have the voice of an orc and that should be noticeable.)
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Old 04-21-2021, 06:45 AM   #24
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Glamor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Yup. Your answer in the 5th post in this thread seems right to me.

Yet this still bothers me. Genre literature has magic making one character look just like another--Uther, for instance, being made to appear like Gorlois so that he could sleep with Igraine. Then there's the oddity that TFT's standard Illusion can be of a particular person and only costs 2 ST. Why, then, can't this more powerful illusion do the same? Perhaps a second Glamor on top of the first?
I wrote my reply this morning before reading your post (see immediately above). My thinking has evolved, but boy, we're both in synch thinking of Uther.

Uther could pull it off with my new interpretation, but it would require a lot of luck and maybe a woman who's not too concerned who is in the skin of her dear hubby (which doesn't really fit the Arthurian narrative as I recall it). It would help if she were sloppy drunk, I guess.

Henry's right that Tollenkar's Lair really does suggest Glamor being used for impersonation.
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Old 04-21-2021, 08:48 AM   #25
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Glamor

"or until the englamored one dies." Ergo it has no effect on non-living things.
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Old 04-21-2021, 08:55 AM   #26
phiwum
 
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I tell you one reason I'm thinking about this spell in some detail. I'm going to have a curious diversion soon. In a bar, a small old woman sits in ill-fitting leather armor and with a battleaxe beside her.

"She" is actually a glamored up barbarian, the victim of a vengeful wizard who we may call Circe for now. Circe is sexually active but can't stand incompetent or selfish lovers. The barbarian was both and for failing to give a damn about his performance, Circe cast a glamor spell on him and slipped out of the room while he slept. The barbarian fails to see the humor in the situation and would be very grateful for anyone with Remove Thrown Spell. He would be easy to anger by anyone poking fun at him, which is bound to happen in a bar.

Now, this could be a hook for seeking out Circe, but I kinda think that she's only going a bit overboard in her vengeance, not that she's fundamentally bad. However, things could get dicey if she finds an arrogant and insensitive prince, changing him into a humanoid frog, an oversized Grippli (Old School Monsters), say.

I think that Glamor as an offensive spell has its possibilities!
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Old 04-21-2021, 09:02 AM   #27
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Glamor

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
"or until the englamored one dies." Ergo it has no effect on non-living things.
The problem with that conclusion is that it's hard to see how to clothe an englamored being. He's wearing clothes to begin with, and if his size nearly doubles, those clothes can't appear in the glamored form because they wouldn't fit at all. Kiediccus figgers they should change size to fit the form, but if they can change size, why not color or form?

Perhaps he can put clothes on his glamored form that can fit, but if the appearance is essentially like an Illusion, then we have an issue that the illusory effects of glamor are interacting with inanimate objects. (We'd have that same problem if the larger glamor form reaches something from a shelf that the real person couldn't reach, but I wouldn't allow that. The effect is appearance only, not abilities and hence not even reach.)

You have to allow glamor to give the appearance of wearing proper clothing or else I don't see how changing size and being clothed is possible. A goblin's robe doesn't fit an glamored up human form. (Pretty sure "glamored up" is the proper technical term.)

Now, there is a technicality in my previous post that is perhaps not right. It's not that the glamored figure's clothing literally changes appearance so much as the glamored form is clothed and the real clothing underneath the glamor cannot be seen. The clothing is just part of the magical disguise.
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Old 04-21-2021, 10:05 AM   #28
Kieddicus
 
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Default Re: Glamor

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
"or until the englamored one dies." Ergo it has no effect on non-living things.
In my games I consider the magic that holds zombies together to be a pseudo-soul. Thus allowing them to hold spells like Glamor. [Note feral zombies don't have a counterfeit soul and thus can't be Glamored up.]

I have actually been thinking of limiting Glamor's size to only allow for a few inches of change. The fact that it is permanent and has almost zero counter play already makes it very strong. And the ST 10 cost is honestly not very high. It isn't a combat spell so you can just cast it on yourself the night before you need it and you'll regain all your lost ST as you sleep.
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Old 04-21-2021, 10:32 AM   #29
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Glamor

Limiting the size change would do away with most concerns about clothing. You could rule that Glamor changes flesh to look like flesh (where flesh is broad enough to include scales, etc.).

I'm not sure I'd go quite so far. I like halflings posing as orcs or humans as Long Lankins, in theory. I think glamor hides your real appearance with a skinned appearance which includes clothing, armor and jewelry, but I'm on the fence about held items.

If it doesn't alter the appearance of held items, there's a real limitation on staff-wielding wizards. I don't know if that's good or bad.
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Old 04-21-2021, 10:46 AM   #30
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Default Re: Glamor

I think I'm going to create lesser/greater versions of GLAMOR for my game... try to address some of these use-cases more explicitly.
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