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Old 11-22-2020, 03:48 PM   #11
DeadParrot
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Default Re: Spears for throwing

I like Axly's reasoning. If the character really wants more ready spears, assign a -1 DX penalty for each carried ready spear over the one in the off hand plus the two in the belt. Carrying a bundle of 10 spears in your off hand is probably doable but you aren't going to set any agility records. A movement allowance penalty is also a possibility. Plus maybe a DX check when pulling one from the carried bundle to avoid dropping the whole mess.

Adjust as needed depending on the bulk of the spears in question.
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Old 11-28-2020, 05:41 PM   #12
Kieddicus
 
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Default Re: Spears for throwing

I run it the same way Axly Suregrip does. Save for only making it take one turn to ready a spear from a pack once you spend the four turns to remove the pack.
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Old 06-13-2021, 11:42 PM   #13
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Default Re: Spears for throwing

I see it as a game balance thing, whenever you consider something "doable" but not specifically outlined.

If a Heavy crossbowman can carry 40 bolts at the ready, or a Longbowman can carry 40 arrows at the ready, with very little concern for encumbrance and maximum combat effectiveness, I would like to see the scales leveled for other missle/thrown weapons users.

Specifically on the spear vs: javelin front

I'm okay with the limit of 3 spears, they are twice the weight of a javelin and considering they "can be" 2.5 yards in length, we have to give that a fair amount of consideration as well.

I would even consider a 4 spear character, although few will opt to occupy both of their hands, many would chose a shield, or have a hand for a torch etc... So I don't like this approach of two spears at the ready as a default.
I would allow the shield hand to hold a second spear for a limited time, but this would put the shield out of proper service, until the spear was transferred to the fighting hand, say after the primary spear was thrown, and now the shield may be readied.

All to often you get players tryin' to min/max and really cram an excessive amount of actions into a single sequence, it's only 5 seconds in a turn, and that includes movement, and some element of evasive maneuver trying to stay alive, so I really like to get a grip on players that try to hard to do everything at once.

Now, back to the 3-4 spear capacity, it's reasonable to allow 2 accessible long weapons, slung on the back, keep in mind the Bowman comparison, but the missing element is the specialized quiver.

Sure you could probably just assume a simple leather strap was sufficient, but these are Adventurers, we want a stable weapon storage system, not 90 inch sharp sticks bangin' around, you can't have it dragging on the ground, so you need a little clearance, so they will have to be 2 feet above the avg. Adventurers head. That is a point that should be considered on a 90" weapon.

Now for Javelins, these are at a maximum 54" and could be argued to be even less, but I think we need to consider RAW and thus I will go with 54".

These are 1/2 the weight of a spear, and Damage reflects that, so we have to assume the metal tips are smaller as well. Same thing applies to the shield arm carry, you could probably grasp 3 in your hand, but I would rule against full use of the shield.
So this brings up the back quiver, how many is reasonable for a quiver that might not be much bigger than a longbow quiver?

a GM just needs to assign a cost to a stabilized back quiver, but I would want this as a viable option in my game, it helps to diversify the all light crossbow using party of murder hobos.

4- 6 in a back quiver would not be excessive, and the javelin is not a game imbalancing weapon.

We just need to assign cost to specialized weapon storage devices.
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Old 06-14-2021, 04:04 AM   #14
RobW
 
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Default Re: Spears for throwing

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAnotherJarhead View Post
a GM just needs to assign a cost to a stabilized back quiver, but I would want this as a viable option in my game, it helps to diversify the all light crossbow using party of murder hobos.

4- 6 in a back quiver would not be excessive, and the javelin is not a game imbalancing weapon.

We just need to assign cost to specialized weapon storage devices.
Great comments, I'm with you on the main thing here being game balance.

But re a specialised quiver for javelins (not to mention spears), now you've got me wondering! I can see how I could put several javelins in a kind of sturdy tube and sling that over my back. But how do I take a javelin out of the quiver?

1. Reach behind my head, grab one, and kind of fling it up and out of the quiver, catch it in the air, and then ready. Cinematic!

2. Rotate the quiver to the front of my body, then hand over hand one javelin out, then throw the quiver back over to the back of my body. Maybe realistic and sure, but kind of clunky, especially if I have a shield

Again, I'm agreeing with you, a javelin isn't imbalancing and if a player wants to carry 3 I don't see a problem with saying that's done with a special quiver. It's just that I've never thought about the mechanics of that before

3. Probably the realistic option is to carry several javelins in a quiver, and when a fight look imminent, take the quiver off and drop it on the ground to easily, quickly, and surely pull javelins as needed
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Old 06-14-2021, 02:36 PM   #15
amenditman
 
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Default Re: Spears for throwing

Historical art shows several javelins were carried in the shield hand and/or in a 'quiver' slung from the waist.
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Old 06-14-2021, 03:59 PM   #16
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Spears for throwing

Three, see:

https://www.quora.com/How-many-javel...s-usually-have

In encumbrance terms that's
3x Javelin 9 pounds
Small shield 10 pounds
Cloth armor 14 pounds
Rapier 1 pound
Waterskin 2 pounds
Backpack 4 pounds
2 days rations 2 pounds
Labyrinth kit 6 pounds
Total: 48 pounds or 5.33 x ST, MA reduced to 8
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Last edited by hcobb; 06-14-2021 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 06-14-2021, 05:12 PM   #17
amenditman
 
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Default Re: Spears for throwing

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Three, see:

https://www.quora.com/How-many-javel...s-usually-have

In encumbrance terms that's
3x Javelin 9 pounds
Small shield 10 pounds
Cloth armor 14 pounds
Rapier 1 pound
Waterskin 2 pounds
Backpack 4 pounds
2 days rations 2 pounds
Labyrinth kit 6 pounds
Total: 48 pounds or 5.33 x ST, MA reduced to 8
Javelinmen usually carried a buckler, not a shield. No armor would be more 'historical'. Why would they carry backpack and misc. equipment into battle?
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Old 06-14-2021, 05:16 PM   #18
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Default Re: Spears for throwing

I also doubt that historical Javelins were all 3 lbs. If light infantry and cavalry carried one in hand and two at the ready in the off hand they were probably much lighter, say 1 to 1 1/2 lbs. each.
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Old 06-15-2021, 01:11 AM   #19
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: Spears for throwing

Javelins compared to the classic OP crossbow "murder hobo" starting characters are not that far off from each other. And the viability of the build pretty much depends on the number of javelins you have easy access to.

Classic 32p crossbowman ST12, DX11(14), IQ9 with 1 bolt per turn at 2d.

32p Javelin flinger, ST9, DX12(14), IQ11
Spear Thrower w/ a very fine javelin with expertise: DX14, missile, 1d+4.

A very fine javelin cost only 400$, so a set of two good ones, and then some extra normal ones, that only do 1d+2 would be the starting armament.

Pretty comparable for a short fight, let's say a five-turn fight. During which time both characters would have killed themselves twice over on average.

The big advantage for the crossbowman would be his bigger ST (and toughness) and the possibility of a broadsword, a 2d weapon, as a backup. He will also advance taking on more DX and armor, since his MA isn't that important.

The advantage of the flinger would be that he doesn't have to spend a turn readying his backup weapon, and the backup weapon already has expertise giving him a very nice set vs. charge should he take that option instead of throwing his "last shot" in melee. adjDX 14, 2d+2, strike first. And once he has dispatched his attacker he is ready to start throwing again. He also has the option for Shrewd attacks and 5vs.DX defends.

And a flinger without expertise does a little less damage 1d+3, but can instead have an adjDX of 17 when throwing, which opens up some possibilities for aimed shots.

The flinger also has the option of moving half his movement, instead of 1 hex (a huge advantage when finding flanking shots and the right positioning), he doesn't have to drop his weapon when engaged, his weapon is always ready and in hand and also acts as a deterrent vs. chargers.

So maybe javelin throwers aren't as OP at 32p as the crossbow guy, but definitely top 10, maybe even top 5 for the arena. And they can easily develop into spear throwers and have more options for advancement than the crossbowman that is pretty much complete from the start. But if you can't carry more than three javelins into battle or one or two spears, it is not really a viable option at all.

The bigger problem would be the equipment Spear Thrower. I think it should be considered a two-hand weapon, at least two hands will be required to load it. But once loaded, I guess you could have an extra javelin in the left hand and a hip quiver or even a back quiver if the quiver only covered half the length of the javelins, so they would be practical to draw.
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Old 06-15-2021, 03:13 AM   #20
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Spears for throwing

I wouldn't bother taking expertise in the spear thrower.
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