09-27-2022, 11:18 PM | #31 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
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Frankly, I won't be surprised if the list of mental skills turns out to be really short. The uses of the Instinct substitute Attribute are likely to be almost exclusively Perception and Will rolls, with a few social skills, some survival skills, a few practical things like Area Knowledge, for instance, and not much else. |
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10-01-2022, 05:11 PM | #32 | |
Join Date: Apr 2022
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
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And I am not trying to be silly with that high IQ example. I consider it quite important, after all, if this were to make it into the rules then I'd have to deal with that. Thus, having a 500IQ creature with the 'nonsapient' -100 thing slapped on it. How did it get that high of an IQ without being sapient. You bring up no fine manipulators, but you can slap that on virtually anything and there is probably an easy rationalization for it. Perhaps some creatures that cannot manipulate anything can still go to space on the backs of a more nimble species who wouldn't be able to put together a spaceship without the guidance of the bad-at-gripping ones. And yes even 20 or 10 IQ is tricky for me. They say dogs are as smart as three year old humans or something. How would that work out? Raise the dogs IQ to 10 but then hamstringing it with the disad? Or the child, would it suffer from the disad too? Is this a solution for roleplay, and just 'dealing with it'? (Dogs being dogs and while they are low IQ their doggy nature we all know can be considered intelligent and capable enough, for a beast? While the infant is simply just not fully developed, etc?) How do high IQ animals have high IQ of that of a human and the not comparable but equivalent, of 10, etc...but trigger the need, so to speak for this disad to be a necessity, making them non-sapient-on-a-human-level? How often does it crop up? Too? Just wanting to know the point of it all when one can just go: Yeah it's a monkey with 6IQ but he's really smart, for a monkey. And now there's a whole race of it. And now they're actually IQ 10. Which is okay,...but: Since they are not really sapient like humans...what's the point from a roleplaying perspective? Who would use this as their PCs disad without risking roleplay breakage. Would it be tied to an 'oracle' like table where the player rolls for actions? (Not sarcasm, actual question) That could generate some 'smart animal like' play through the proxy of the table for actions, elevating it above something low IQ but still constraining it. But if so then you can just use that table and say: Yeah, I'm going to half play this character off a random table and roleplay the solutions to the problems it brings, and embrace the problems to other things, too. I'm not against crunch, but I am also pro roleplay. Is this to get 100 points off of such a character? If so...where would these points be put? And if these points are put into extraordinary capabilities that go far and beyond a -35 point housecat, then why isn't it evolved higher? And/or what is it doing with all that capability...while staying non-sapient. This is both either confusing, or smells like free points cooked up somewhere. LIke "I'm a Jedi but I also was a Sith before and I got better but I can still cast force lightning and do force chokes" To: "I'm a nonsapient but extremely capable cat with 100 bonus points to spare on top of the (200) points for the campaign and a high IQ so I can still roleplay it cause it's not a potato, not sapient but I also bought these psyker abilities and it's gonna be awesome." On the point crock front. And the confusion front I have (hopefully) explained too. An extraordinarily capable cheetah doesn't necessarily gain IQ points due to special circumstances, and can simply be considered, special trained. Like a dog that hops backwards on its hind legs, while standing upright. That doesn't make the dog smarter, he could always do it, he and his kind just didn't end up in a situation usually, so they don't do it naturally. So, to me, there is no need for this special disad. If you want some really smart ferrets as familiars, then you can have them, even if they're still only IQ 5 or whatever. They don't have to be IQ 10 and then toned down. And if you want to play a ferret as a PC that has a meaningful capability of roleplay (just like too many disads as the basic set puts it turns into a circus) Then you simply cannot be a regular ferret and have to be some sort of uplifted species, and at that point you can just handwave it all, with other traits too. "IQ15 but stress atavism, kleptomania, homebrew disad with a self control roll for squeezing into tight spaces" etc. (see, not opposed to crunch :P) If you pile enough on them to fine tune your bestial ways, then you might even get more points out of them while at the same time having potentially more believability and flavor points to jump off off than this blanket deal. Edit: Ooooh, what about Gaspode from the Discworld? I don't have that book, but maybe he's in there. If so, how is he implemented? Last edited by Lovewyrm; 10-01-2022 at 05:18 PM. |
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10-01-2022, 06:52 PM | #33 | ||||
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: UK
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
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"Fudge it by roleplaying it in a way other than what the numbers say" is always a possible answer, but trying to alter the numbers so that they fit is also a possible answer here. Quote:
So, in your example above of the kid and the dog, the dog would have Navigation-10/TL0 (and/or Area Knowledge-10), because navigation (without technological aids, at least) is not a "human speciality" so an averagely intelligent, grown-up dog will be roughly as good at it as an averagely intelligent, grown-up human. But in things that are human specialities, such as anything involving using tools, he'll be down to effective skill 2 (unable to learn the skill so default of IQ-4, with an Incompetence penalty of a further -4). The kid, on the other hand, doesn't have Nonsapient (because she's human and has the wiring for all the human "superpowers" of language etc.), but has a low overall GURPS IQ, because she's only three - therefore, Navigation will be really low along with all her other IQ skills. But she won't be any worse at "human speciality" skills than at anything else. It does work out. (I'm not sure that this couldn't be done in less complicated ways, but it does work out). Quote:
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Ooh, good point. I don't have the book either. But Gaspode really did have human-like intelligence (could talk, read, work as a theatrical agent, etc.). So he'd probably just be a straightforward IQ 10 (or more) without any equivalent of Nonsapient, just with paws.
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10-01-2022, 07:59 PM | #34 |
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: UK
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
Unless I'm missing something, it should be [-50], by that logic. Normal animal templates only have reduced IQ but not reduced Will and Per, and Decreased IQ 5 without Decreased Per 5 and Decreased Will 5 is [-50]. That would put animal characters with this disadvantage back in the same area of point-values as the standard animal templates with low IQs, if that's what you were aiming at.
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10-02-2022, 12:56 AM | #35 | |
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: The Wired
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
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10-02-2022, 02:35 AM | #36 | ||
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Location: Sumter, SC
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
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*Drake has IQ 4 [-120] and IQ +6 (academic, technical, and brainier “adventure” skills, -40%) [48], for a total of [-72] *Morgan has IQ 10 [0] and IQ -6 (academic, technical, and brainier “adventure” skills, -40%) [-96] for only [-96] To prevent this kind of point bonanza you have to treat "Animal IQ" as [8/level] Quote:
"Animal IQ" is effectively [10/level] Anaconda — IQ: 6 [-80]; Will: 12 [30]; Per: 11 [25] Note that Will is bought up from IQ 6 not IQ 10 and Per is the same way. (pg 6)
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10-02-2022, 03:30 AM | #37 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
Okay; so it's not a Limitation. But it's like a Limitation, in that the fact that Instinct can do less per level means that it should cost less per level.
According to the “Different Strokes?” box in PU9 (p.47), it's possible for some characters to have different attributes than everyone else. “This should be indicated by a marker that costs points (like Amphibious) where the results are favorable, has zero cost (like Semi-Aquatic) where they're a tradeoff, or give back points (like Aquatic) where there unfavorable.” The idea I'm suggesting is to completely remove IQ from animals, and to add an Instinct Attribute to take over many of its functions. That's a net unfavorable tradeoff, because Instinct 10 can't do as many things as IQ can. It's why I originally described it as a Limitation; but it's probably better to describe it as a substitute Attribute. You're right that DF5 prices “Animal IQ” the same as human IQ. But I don't find that at all a convincing argument, because I doubt that the guys writing DF5 were thinking in terms of what animal intelligence actually entails; they were basically thinking in the same terms as Basic Set that animal IQ is “merely” a low IQ. The whole point of this thread is to explore the possibility that what animals use differs in kind from what humans use, not just (or even) in degree. In particular, it assumes that whatever animals have in place of human IQ should also have a score in the 8–13 range, instead of insisting that animals should be stuck in the 1–5 range. Removing IQ from animals and replacing it with a new Instinct Attribute that consists of Will, Perception, and a comparative handful of mental skills that don't require the higher mental training facilities that humans have (thus definitely excluding academic and technical skills) definitely captures the spirit of what the OP is going for. The one thing remaining is how to price the “marker” I referred to before. Selling IQ down to 0 would be –200 points; buying Instinct up to 10 would cost 120 points (because without the academic and technical skills, Instinct should cost 12 points per level). Combined, that's a net –80 points. Except that the other thing you lose when switching from IQ to Instinct is your native language, for another –6 points. Thus, my suggestion to make “replace IQ with Instinct” a –86 point Disadvantage. While –100 points is indeed a nice, round number, it's arguably too much of a bargain. On the other hand, the –100 points approach originally suggested assumes that an animal's “IQ” should continue to be priced at 20/level, rather than the 12/level that I'm proposing for Instinct. By the time you buy the Attribute up to 12, the “it's just a –100 point Disadvantage” approach has lost all pricing edge over the “it's a –86 Disadvantage to replace the 20/level IQ with a 12/level Instinct Attribute”. |
10-02-2022, 04:16 AM | #38 | |
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
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Here is how IQ was presented in the Classic Basic Set 3e (pg 13): *1 — Vegetable *2 — Insect *3 — Reptile *4 — Horse *5 — Dog *6 — Chimpanzee The addition of Wis and Per changed things but as far as IQ goes that has been the base line.
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10-02-2022, 04:18 AM | #39 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
Right. But that's not what this thread is assuming. It's assuming that the primary purpose that “IQ” serves for animals is Will and Perception; it provides the baseline for these as well as serving as the baseline for a handful of skills that it makes sense for animals to have. And in that regard, it doesn't make sense for animals to be operating in the low single digits. They're quite as accept as humans when it comes to Will and Perception and that handful of non-physical skills that animals can have.
Last edited by dataweaver; 10-02-2022 at 04:26 AM. |
10-02-2022, 05:29 AM | #40 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Disconnecting Sapience from IQ
Some examples from GURPS Bunnies and Burrows of some skills that animals ought to be able to learn. Keep in mind that the bunnies in question are fantasy creatures, in that they're far more clever than a real rabbit would be; but they're still far closer to regular animals than they are to humans. Still, some of these skills out to be thought of as “cinematic skills” where animals are concerned: they're not things that your typical animal could learn.
Acrobatics Acting (to mimic the voices of other rabbits) Agronomy (what pikas do in terms of cultivating and harvesting mushrooms) Anthropology (for animals who have some vague comprehension of the mysteries of humans) Architecture/TLR (for constructing burrows or dams) Artist Botany/TLR Brawling Camouflage Climbing Disguise Engineer/TLR Merchant Meteorology/TLR Scrounging Survival Swimming Tracking Traps Zoology This isn't a complete list; and as I said, is from a 3e book, so it probably needs adaption in order to apply to a 4e animal. But it illustrates some ideas of what sorts of skills might be learnable by animals. And the same sorts of arguments for why Will and Perception should be bought up in traditional GURPS games would also apply to most of these sorts of skills. So instead of buying all of these individually, wouldn't it be easier to just set “IQ” to the same range of “IQ” in humans. (I'm getting some sleep.) |
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