[Basic] Nature versus Nurture - DX and IQ

[Wavefunction]

Hey guys,

Now, first of all, this is a contentious subject, there's no right answer, and everyone has a different opinion. I know that, I just want to hear some different viewpoints out of curiosity.

That said, how much of DX and IQ do you think is down to genetics, and how much to experience? Assuming you believe DX and IQ can be learnt at all.

My own view is that DX and IQ can be learnt, that learning a wide variety of dexterity-based skills is likely to improve your overall coordination and, well, dexterity. If I had to put numbers on it, I'd say, assuming a human max of 16, 2 or 3 levels can be acquired through experience, the rest is genetic.

That's my view, what's yours?

[Kalzazz]

I can't handle the notion of a 16 as human max very well, if someone at gunpoint made me choose a max I would pick 18 as max, 3 for min, as GURPS is basically a 3-18 system . . . I normally don't think there is a max though

That said, for this I can use 16, I would guess around half/half

I would consider it could go both ways. So a DX 10 person could be nature 7, nurture +3 (lots of training), nature 10, nurture 0 (ordinary activity), nature 13, nurture -3 (one with the couch)

That would mean a min of 4, max of 16

[jason taylor]

Just to start with there is always the "road not taken" point to be considered. IQ and DX are trained to be associated with a given amount of skills and if those exist or do not exist in a culture the culture has molded the DX and IQ accordingly. For instance horse archery will do certain things to the body such as bending the legs, swelling the thumb where it fits into the ring and so on. It will also train the IQ in evaluating terrain from a tactical point of view(military history does that too by the way, sometimes when going through mountainous country I find myself thinking this or that position is where I would like to put a unit).

Scriptural and numerical cultures do a lot for information storage, but you are unlikely to find oral skills developed to a pre-literate level except on a specialized Entertainer and probably not even there.

Having a pure DX and IQ distinguished from what they are used for is impossible.

[Wavefunction]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I can't handle the notion of a 16 as human max very well, if someone at gunpoint made me choose a max I would pick 18 as max, 3 for min, as GURPS is basically a 3-18 system . . . I normally don't think there is a max though

That said, for this I can use 16, I would guess around half/half

Oh, I was just assuming an max of 16 as an example, since that's what I use as a reasonable approximation for my games. You use whatever you like, the question has more to do with relative levels than absolute levels.

[sir_pudding]

The rules definitely assume that they can be learned, and stuff probably breaks (though depending on the game possibly not noticeably) if you don't.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Wavefunction

Hey guys,

Now, first of all, this is a contentious subject, there's no right answer, and everyone has a different opinion. I know that, I just want to hear some different viewpoints out of curiosity.

That said, how much of DX and IQ do you think is down to genetics, and how much to experience? Assuming you believe DX and IQ can be learnt at all.

My own view is that DX and IQ can be learnt, that learning a wide variety of dexterity-based skills is likely to improve your overall coordination and, well, dexterity. If I had to put numbers on it, I'd say, assuming a human max of 16, 2 or 3 levels can be acquired through experience, the rest is genetic.

That's my view, what's yours?

Based on what Bio-tech says is possible with eugenic modification (as opposed to species or radical modification):

Nature:
ST: 12
DX: 11
IQ: 12
HT: 13

Originally Posted by Pyramid 83, page 16

For DX, IQ (and hence Will, and Per), and HT, it’s easy to keep the lid on: Treat the 6-to-15 range described in How to Select Basic Attributes (p. B14) as the scope of realistic ability for adult humans. To avoid implausible resistance to bleeding, poison, and so on, the GM might cap HT slightly lower; the 14 for the hardiest natural creatures (pp. B455-460) works, and even 13 is defensible. The GM may permit extraordinary people to buy one level over the usual limit if they take Unusual Background (Peak Attribute), which costs as much as a single level of that attribute; e.g., 5 points for Will or Per, 10 points for HT, or 20 points for DX or IQ. This extreme sets the “hard” limit on human ability.

[Flyndaran]

IQ and DX aren't real. They don't describe anything that real humans possess.
They're FAR too expansive of traits.
IQ is literally everything mental that isn't coordination based. No one is awesome at everything like that. Some may be better than norm in EVERYTHING, but no one is awesome at it.
Similar issue with DX.

That means, in my opinion, that those stats of even 14, let alone, 18 are patently not possible for anything remotely human.

[malloyd]

I'd be inclined to say that almost all of DX and IQ! are learned, and fairly consciously learned at that, because they are almost all about skill levels, and even default skills are something you need to be taught. The Will and Per components of IQ are probably more genetic or environmental.

I'm not sure what you would want to know for though. It wouldn't matter to any individual character particularly, and couldn't usually be separated anyway.

[Flyndaran]

There's also the possibility that the ratio isn't the same for everyone and for every aspect.
Compared to my brothers, my strength is entirely genetic, but there are loads of people that trained to get to my base level. While it will take hard work for me to reach the running ability of my brother, if ever.

[Gef]

Say the psycometricians, g is fixed but you can learn skills; g actually goes down as we age even though competence rises. That's because experience lets us recognize problems and know remember the solutions, instead of having to reinvent them, skill in another word. Since GURPS counts experience as well as native ability, yes, IQ is raisable, possibly without limit if you have an immortal.

From personal experience and friends' anecdotes, I don't know if Per is trainable, but a lot of skills have Per-based applications. For example, when I go out to eat with a friend who's a waiter, he can't help but notice every empty glass.

Will includes resistance to temptation, and I'd say I'm more resistant because I've learned what the consequences are for giving in. That said, knowing the consequences means I'm less Fearless, which is also part of Will.

I was clumsy as a young man; all my GURPS gaming buddies said I had "DX 8 in real life." Now I'm not. Fencing and martial arts helped, and in particular it helped with shooting pistols, all that time spent holding a pistol grip and lining up the blade with my opponent's heart. I think this means that there are way more defaults between skills than the book lists, but they can be represented by raising overall DX.