Trained by a Master - Unarmed only

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

I do find it odd that an ambidextrous dual-wielding fencer with both advantages could parry six times before needing to parry at -2 (0R, 0L,-1R,-1R,-1L, -1L, -2R). The zweihander from Fantasy Tech parries at 0,-1,-1,-2 with just Weapon Master. Letting it parry at 0,-1,-1,-1,-1,-2 with both seems like overkill.

Finding out a rule isn't what you thought it was is jarring, sure. But this doesn't seem like overkill. The parry progression you're describing here is for a character who spent, at a minimum, 50 CP on traits that only modify combat equations: TBaM [30] and Weapon Master: One Weapon [20]. This guy still has no weapon in hand and no skills with any weapons. His parry score with an Easy weapon is at default: 6. For 1 more CP (now he's spent 51 CP) spent on an Average difficulty weapon skill, he has a parry of 7, and for 2 CP he has a parry of 8.

My point is: this fighter has spent 50 CP on combat modifiers but he still sucks really bad at fighting. He has to buy DX and Weapon Skill for those advantages to start mattering at all. If anything, I think the stacking effects of TBaM and WM is underkill. There needs to be a lot more stacking involved for 50 CP in advantages - or just combine them.

I think very few players actually take both TBaM and WM.

Edit: Those same 50 CP could have given him an Average weapon skill at DX+12 plus a couple of points for a SiG balanced weapon and a Weapon Bond. And now he's parrying at 15.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

Finding out a rule isn't what you thought it was is jarring, sure. But this doesn't seem like overkill. The parry progression you're describing here is for a character who spent, at a minimum, 50 CP on traits that only modify combat equations: TBaM [30] and Weapon Master: One Weapon [20]. This guy still has no weapon in hand and no skills with any weapons. His parry score with an Easy weapon is at default: 6. For 1 more CP (now he's spent 51 CP) spent on an Average difficulty weapon skill, he has a parry of 7, and for 2 CP he has a parry of 8.

My point is: this fighter has spent 50 CP on combat modifiers but he still sucks really bad at fighting. He has to buy DX and Weapon Skill for those advantages to start mattering at all. If anything, I think the stacking effects of TBaM and WM is underkill. There needs to be a lot more stacking involved for 50 CP in advantages - or just combine them.

I think very few players actually take both TBaM and WM.

Edit: Those same 50 CP could have given him an Average weapon skill at DX+12 plus a couple of points for a SiG balanced weapon and a Weapon Bond. And now he's parrying at 15.

Traits don't exist in a vacuum, and the character is getting more out of TBaM and WM than just the Parry reduction. Dinadon used the example of someone with Greatsword 24, and thus Parry 15 (although 16 is more likely, as it's hard to imagine someone spending this many points and not picking up Combat Reflexes). If we put all [50] from TbaM+WM into Greatsword, that would be a further +12 to skill (with [2] left over), boosting to 36 and thus Parry 21 (22)... but our "all Greatsword all the time" variant no longer benefits from TbaM when fighting unarmed (including grappling), deals less damage when he hits with his zweihander, and suffers increased Rapid Strike and Parry iteration penalties. He also lacks access to any Advantage, Skill, or Technique that TbaM/WM served as gatekeepers for. Looking at only the effect on Parry, TbaM+WM, assuming they stack, means Parries take 1/16th (1/2 each for Fencing, Two-Handed, TbaM, and WM) the iteration penalty - 15, 14, 14, 14, 14, 13, 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12, 12, etc. With only WM, Parries take 1/8th (Fencing, Two-Handed, WM) the iteration penalty but Greatsword is at 31 - 18, 16, 16, 17, 17, 16, 16, 15, 15, 14, 14, 13, 13, 12, 12, etc. Without either, Parries take 1/4th (Fencing, Two-Handed) the iteration penalty - 21, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, etc. This does put the extreme-skill character as slightly superior to the stacked-TbaM+WM one in terms of Parries (the former needs to Parry 10 attacks in a second to fall behind the latter in Parry ability). Assuming we go with "round up" for the penalties - Rapid Strike penalties actually round down (Flurry of Blows + TbaM or WM is -1 per additional attack), so Parries might as well, which would change things up a bit. Overall, I think TbaM and WM stacking for Parries might not be broken (unless rounding down), but my preference would be for them not to do so.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

Finding out a rule isn't what you thought it was is jarring, sure. But this doesn't seem like overkill. The parry progression you're describing here is for a character who spent, at a minimum, 50 CP on traits that only modify combat equations: TBaM [30] and Weapon Master: One Weapon [20]. This guy still has no weapon in hand and no skills with any weapons. His parry score with an Easy weapon is at default: 6. For 1 more CP (now he's spent 51 CP) spent on an Average difficulty weapon skill, he has a parry of 7, and for 2 CP he has a parry of 8.

My point is: this fighter has spent 50 CP on combat modifiers but he still sucks really bad at fighting. He has to buy DX and Weapon Skill for those advantages to start mattering at all. If anything, I think the stacking effects of TBaM and WM is underkill. There needs to be a lot more stacking involved for 50 CP in advantages - or just combine them.

I think very few players actually take both TBaM and WM.

Edit: Those same 50 CP could have given him an Average weapon skill at DX+12 plus a couple of points for a SiG balanced weapon and a Weapon Bond. And now he's parrying at 15.

Having gone at looked at the wording in the DFRPG it is also much clearer that you only get one. That Kromm quote is mostly likely just poorly phrased. Martial Arts, How to Be a GURPS GM, and the DFRPG all state that the two do not stack for parrying. If he thought they should stack there's no reason he would have said they don't stack when writing the DFRPG.