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Old 11-19-2023, 05:46 PM   #51
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Default Re: Tolkien magic and game applications

There are limits to how much Catholic doctrine applies to Middle-earth. The Elves did not experience original sin, and if Men did, it was in a very different form than found in Genesis (in some versions, it is accepting Morgoth as their god). One mustn't get too hung up about this sort of thing.
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Old 11-19-2023, 08:31 PM   #52
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Default Re: Tolkien magic and game applications

Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
There are limits to how much Catholic doctrine applies to Middle-earth.
Agreed. Tolkien is better seen as inspired by than reflective of any religious doctrines.

That said, there is much allegorical reflection.

Especially since one can see Tolkien exploring the issues of sin and salvation...
It is doctrinal that all that can sin can be saved, but not all who can be saved shall be.

Can the Maiar sin? Clearly - Sauron, Saruman...
Can the Elves? Even they can. See also Galadriel denying the ring...
Is the Elven apotheosis a full on apocostasis? I've not read enough to know.

Which makes me wonder - How many (In Nomine) Forces do elves get?

Last edited by ak_aramis; 11-19-2023 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 11-19-2023, 10:29 PM   #53
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Default Re: Tolkien magic and game applications

Originally Posted by Irish Wolf View Post
They were only supposed to be golems, animated directly by Aule at all times. However, when Eru Iluvatar reprimanded Aule, he moved to destroy his creations - which wept and begged for mercy.
That was because God had granted them sapience, turned Aule's robots into people.

I [Aule] offer to thee these things, the work of the hands which thou hast made. Do with them what thou wilt. But should I not rather destroy the work of my presumption?’

Then Aulë took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves; and he wept. But Ilúvatar had compassion upon Aulë and his desire, because of his humility; and the Dwarves shrank from the hammer and wore afraid, and they bowed down their heads and begged for mercy.

And the voice of Ilúvatar said to Aulë: ‘Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.’

Then Aulë cast down his hammer and was glad, and he gave thanks to Ilúvatar, saying: ‘May Eru bless my work and amend it!’

But Ilúvatar spoke again and said: ‘Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein; but in no other way will I amend thy handiwork, and as thou hast made it, so shall it be....

Third hand, all of Melkor's creations were mere mockeries of things sung into being by the Valar at Eru's direction, and had life only because of that - Melkor was incapable of creating things of his own accord, whether due to limitations of power or simply his own personal limits, and could only change what others had made. (This may be due to the changes Eru made in the Song to incorporate Melkor's modifications, however.) And the machineries of Saruman weren't inherently evil in and of themselves - they were merely the mills and furnaces of Gondor and the Shire, writ large. What was evil about them, far as I could tell, was Saruman's destruction of the environment around his stronghold, so reminiscent of Sauron's despoiling of Mordor. The smokes and steams didn't enrage the Ents, it was the wanton destruction of trees to fuel the process.

In short, in my understanding of Tolkien's view, machines aren't evil, but the people running them certainly can be.
As JRRT said in correspondence (not an exact quote), it would be possible to at least defend Lotho's plan to introduce more efficient mill machinery to the Shire, but not the use to which Saruman put them.
HMS Overflow-For conversations off topic here.

Last edited by Johnny1A.2; 11-19-2023 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 11-21-2023, 01:48 AM   #54
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Default Re: Tolkien magic and game applications

Or, we could just reexamine the Egyptian Books of the Dead and reanalyze how they might have possibly build the pyramids...seems equally useless at this point to continue this conversation guys. Consider it.
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Old 11-22-2023, 03:24 PM   #55
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Default Re: Tolkien magic and game applications

Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Tolkien's orcs were able to drive the dwarves out of Moria and prevent their retaking it. And the dwarves were not militarily incompetent.
No actually the Balrog did both. They would have retaken it in a heartbeat if Durin's Bane was not there. They were not afraid of orcs who were by now stricken with an severe strain of deadness.
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison
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