Claw-claw-bite and armor

[Trachmyr]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

[...snip...]

I've sat still and let a decently trained but wussy black belt throw multiple punches at my head, defending only by presenting the crown of my head to the blows, and I can tell you that he hurt his hands way worse than he hurt me, especially since if I even had any bruises they didn't bother me.
(It was funny how he ran away when I told him it was my turn now...)

GURPS represents this quite well actually. This mistake might be in overassigning skill to real people.

One common misconception about "black-belts" is that they are a "Master". This is far from the truth, at 1st dan (1st degree black belt), the student has learned and can perform with a degree of competance the basic skills of a style. Instructors are usually at least a 3rd degree black-belt, often higher. 1st degree black-belts are more like interns. Thus at 1st degree black, a practioner should have "style familiarity" and Attribute Level+0 in all required skills. This is because the student is evaluated on their ability to perform techniques, forms, katas, etc. not actually fight. So it's the number of skill points invested, not overall skill that is graded. Also be aware that most style don't teach "karate", but teach "karate sport/art".

So let's say your wussy black-belt has a ST8. Let's say he's a 2nd dan (decently trained), and give him attribute level+2 in all required skills... perhaps even a few points in techniques. Since he likely learned karate sport/art, that gives him karate at DX-1. Let's be generous and say he has a DX of 12.

Effect: To strike the skull he rolls at a effective skill of 5 (DX based Punch), so to improve that let's take AoA (Determined) and a Telegraphic Attack... that gives a skill roll of 13, so he'll land most of those hits... and you're not defending. ST8 thrusting damage is 1d-3, for a punch that's 1d-4. His Karate skill is not high enough to give a bounus, so 1d-4 vs. DR2 results in 0 damage barring a critical hit.

You would get some bruises out of it (and possibly some real damage if he missed by 1 and hit the face and rolled high on the damage roll), and his hands would likely be bruised (unless using open palm or a hammer fist, but then his damage is reduced to 1d-5)... both below the scale of GURPS injury.

Had he not been so wussy (ST9 or ST10), or have been an instructor (thus getting a +1 damage bonus due to karate default of attribute+0), then damage would have been an average of 2/3 a point per hit (1/6 damage x4 for brain hit)... if both conditions were true damage would have averaged 2 points per hit.

[Trachmyr]

As to the OT of this thread... I would not apply fractional armor divisors to cutting bites and claws. However extending the rule in LT concerning cutting weapons & blunt trauma to impaling natural attacks and increasing the threshold to DRx3 for cutting natural attacks might achieve what you're looking for... without producing wierd effects when compared to blunt damage.

I presented a houserule for exactly this in another thread. Although it was directed towars stone (& bone/horn) weapons, it could conceivable apply to natural attacks.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Not as well trained as the guy who can choose instead of stepping away to have his crown hit instead of his face?
*grin*

Wouldn't that be a GURPS Parry, though? Interposing a less vulnerable body part sure sounds like it.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Besides, isn't that the same argument against a mace vs axe/sword and mail?

That's why it would be funky for sword vs. mace if they had the same mass of the striking part. Rock beats LASER, anyone?

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Trachmyr

Had he not been so wussy (ST9 or ST10), or have been an instructor (thus getting a +1 damage bonus due to karate default of attribute+0), then damage would have been an average of 2/3 a point per hit (1/6 damage x4 for brain hit)... if both conditions were true damage would have averaged 2 points per hit.

Asta Kask probably has a point, this maybe should be considered an Aggressive Parry on my part using the crown of my head instead of my arms...

As for your numbers, he was a 4th dan then, though I don't think he ever got past 7th, he'd been an instructor for years at the point I'm talking about, and at 6'2" and 165 lbs, while I put him easily in the wussy 9 ST category, I wouldn't peg him as a ST 8.

This is also part of why I don't see that much of a threat from most karate practitioners, above and beyond any normally trained fighter, unless they're 8th+ dan types.

[Bruno]

The problem with "karate" (especially in North America) is that there is a LOT of stuff being taught as "karate", much of which doesn't have much to do with even the Japanese sport, let alone a combative self defense style. I've seen "karate" schools teaching Taequondo, I've seen "karate" schools teaching thai kickboxing (?), I've seen "karate" schools teaching what looks like Judo (!!)... and then there's the "It looks sort of like someone watched a lot of movies and thinks they're a 'Karate Master' now" type of "karate".

At least in an English speaking context, the word "karate" is almost meaningless without several qualifiers tacked on to give you some information about what the hell the person is talking about (and then you need to go research it).

I'd be cautious about writing off people who "know karate" entirely - there ARE schools teaching pretty honest Japanese style Karate in North America, and even the ones teaching Something Else can be teaching perfectly legitimate styles, just under a confusing name. And because they're mostly independent studios, you can't be sure that they're all just "black belt factories" - even in a commercial franchise a particular teacher could turn out to be a hard-case with useful knowledge ;)

[Flyndaran]

Or the fact that the majority of legitimate schools teach Karate Sport or Art rather than the pure self-defense versions.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Bruno

And because they're mostly independent studios, you can't be sure that they're all just "black belt factories" - even in a commercial franchise a particular teacher could turn out to be a hard-case with useful knowledge ;)

If nothing else, Karate Art will train your endurance and balance in a rough semblance of a combat skill. Yes, much of what you would learn is useless at best, but your body will pick up more useful muscle memory than someone who spent the same time practicing Games (FPS).

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by RyanW

If nothing else, Karate Art will train your endurance and balance in a rough semblance of a combat skill. Yes, much of what you would learn is useless at best, but your body will pick up more useful muscle memory than someone who spent the same time practicing Games (FPS).

And it keeps the people going to McDojos from becoming Unfit, though for some of those dojos calling the hitting they do as Karate Art is being generous.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

6'2" and 165 lbs, while I put him easily in the wussy 9 ST category, I wouldn't peg him as a ST 8.

Wow, I'm 6'(well, Five foot, Eleven and 7/8th inchs...) and 160, and I wouldn't consider Stating myself lower than ST 10 or 11. Of course, I also have a fairly physically demanding career, so that could account for it.

This is also part of why I don't see that much of a threat from most karate practitioners, above and beyond any normally trained fighter, unless they're 8th+ dan types.

It depends on how they were trained, I guess. Whether their training included realistic sparring or was more "sport-like". I know some Karate guys who were tough hombres. They also took Krav Maga, Mauy Thai, Jujitsu and boxing, so it could be cross-training!