[Low Tech] Some questions about helmets...

[Sam Baughn]

There seem to be some kinds of medieval helmet bits which don't quite fit the ones provided in Low-Tech.

A lot of helmets had a solid plate sticking out over the back of the neck. I guess this could be treated as a Lobsterback made of different materials, or as a kind of Brim for the neck.

Armets had detachable plates which covered the neck, ears, cheeks and jaw. Would it be reasonable to say these count as a combination of a Bevor and ear-covering Cheek Guards?

It seems that fifteenth century knights often used a kind of extended bevor (which I've also seen called a 'wrapper') which covered only the front of the neck but reached up to just under the eyes and was worn over other rigid armour. How should that be handled? I'm thinking maybe 8-10% of the cost and weight of torso armour, giving protection to the neck from the front and the face 3/6?

Likewise, some bevors extended quite low onto the chest. I'm thinking maybe giving them a 1/6 chance of counting towards chest DR from the front might be appropriate, for maybe another 6-7% of the cost and weight of torso armour.

Do spectacles cover the nose and, if not, is it allowable (or historically accurate) to combine them with nasals? Would this be a good way to represent the short visors seen on some later medieval helmets which only covered the eyes, nose and upper cheeks (the kind you usually see on salets and armets, for example)? If not, how should they be handled?

[Bruno]

I'd approach the helmet addons much like the various body parts - some pieces are basically just two or more other pieces that are in a unit. They're made from parts, game mechanically, but not IRL.

I agree that a Lobsterback is the right way to handle the neck plate.

A Bevor with attached Cheek guards is a great idea, and I think it works fine, too.

Spectacles do not provide protection to the Nose hit location, but there's no reason why you couldn't combine them with any of the other options, including the Nasal. I'd say that combo is a good choice for the short visors (or an "armored Batman Helmet" sort of thing really).

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

It seems that fifteenth century knights often used a kind of extended bevor (which I've also seen called a 'wrapper') which covered only the front of the neck but reached up to just under the eyes and was worn over other rigid armour. How should that be handled? I'm thinking maybe 8-10% of the cost and weight of torso armour, giving protection to the neck from the front and the face 3/6?

Bevor, Front Only (half weight) + attached just about everything else you can get except Spectacles sounds about right. Or + a Face hit location piece if you go ahistorical and extend it all the way with added eye slits.

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Spectacles do not provide protection to the Nose hit location, but there's no reason why you couldn't combine them with any of the other options, including the Nasal. I'd say that combo is a good choice for the short visors (or an "armored Batman Helmet" sort of thing really).

Well, if you add cheek & ear guards (3/6) and a bevoir (1/6) to a nasal (1/6) and spectacles (1/6), you get 100% coverage of the face, which is right for an armet.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Bevor, Front Only (half weight) + attached just about everything else you can get except Spectacles sounds about right. Or + a Face hit location piece if you go ahistorical and extend it all the way with added eye slits.

Well, a Bevor is larger at the front than the back, so it's probably better to reduce a Bevor by half the weight of a Gorget, then add some other stuff (I'm thinking cheek guards should be a decent enough approximation).

EDIT: another, simpler, way to do it would be to call it half a turret.

Incidentally, does anyone else find it a bit weird that helmet additions are based on the weight of the helmet, not a flat percentage of torso armour like every other piece? It doesn't make much sense to me that a nasal for a bascinet costs and weighs slightly more than one for a pot helm. It makes even less sense for Brims; a kettle hat (pot helm with brim) seems to have a larger brim than a burgonet (bascinet with brim).

Also, does anyone have any idea how to handle the cage-like bars which protect the face on some seventeenth century helmets? They look like they would only work against crushing and cutting attacks and then only if you were fairly lucky. Low Tech has a football helmet which seems to have a similar kind of face guard - in that case the entire helmet gets better protection against crushing attacks, but I think that the low tech version was intended to protect against sword swings, so that wouldn't really work.

[Bruno]

It may have been a compromise to avoid "this is 1% of torso armor, this is 2%, this other thing is 1%".

I'd mostly be using them with a Pot Helm to build a new helm design out of parts though, so it does reduce to nice numbers like that. Otherwise you get numbers like 1.25% of torso armor weight, which frightens math phobic people.

[Wraithe]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Also, does anyone have any idea how to handle the cage-like bars which protect the face on some seventeenth century helmets? They look like they would only work against crushing and cutting attacks and then only if you were fairly lucky. Low Tech has a football helmet which seems to have a similar kind of face guard - in that case the entire helmet gets better protection against crushing attacks, but I think that the low tech version was intended to protect against sword swings, so that wouldn't really work.

I would think that the bars like that would protect against "swings", though i don't think that's kosher under RAW, so I would just model it as effective against cutting and crushing, but not impaling, but I'd also give it slightly less DR.

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by Wraithe

I would think that the bars like that would protect against "swings"...

I imagine that it would stop a punch or animal bite fairly well and they are classed as 'thrusts' so I'd rather go by damage type.

Originally Posted by Wraithe

...so I would just model it as effective against cutting and crushing, but not impaling...

It's worth remembering that 4th edition has more than three types of damage, although it looks useless against anything except crushing and cutting.

[Harald387]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

It's worth remembering that 4th edition has more than three types of damage, although it looks useless against anything except crushing and cutting.

Write it up as 'full DR vs. Cutting and Crushing; half DR against other damage types'; I probably wouldn't make it more than DR 2 or DR 3 anyway.

[DanHoward]

If you say that a piece of armour only protects against swinging attacks then that would include picks.

[Pomphis]

Another maybe stupid question:

can I build all helmets from all materials ? For example, have a Leather or Plate Coif ? I ask because the description talks about it being mail, but OTOH I see no explicit rule "helmet X may only be build using Y".

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by Pomphis

Another maybe stupid question:

can I build all helmets from all materials ? For example, have a Leather or Plate Coif ? I ask because the description talks about it being mail, but OTOH I see no explicit rule "helmet X may only be build using Y".

I think you need to judge it on a case-by-case basis. Most things which are usually mail can probably be made from any flexible material, while certain other items wouldn't really work if they were flexible.

So, a padded cloth coif would be reasonable, but a solid plate one seems unlikely. You could probably make a brim out of hardened leather, but not out of fine mail.