Fencing Parry with Rapier etc. - Realistic even against heavier weapons?

[OldSam]

Hi, the question came up in another RPG-Forum, if the normal rule to allow multiple parries (fencing bonus, no penalties) with a fencing weapon (like a rapier) is really plausible gainst heavier weapons?

Think of something like a rapier against a Zweihänder (two handed Sword), Great Axe/Battle Axe, Warhammer, a Bastard Sword used with both hands etc.

Now think of the even harder situation where a good fencer with a rapier would stand against three opponents with Zweihänder, Great Axe and Warhammer... Would it be realistic that he can easily make multiple parries in that situation?! We think it is not or is there a good explanation?
In most cases the weapons of the opposition are clearly heavier, but don't have three times the weight of the rapier, so as it seems there wouldn't even be a high risk of weapon breakage...


Maybe it would be a good idea to restrict the usage of multiple fencing parries in the same turn in a way that it cannot be used against heavier weapons? What do you thing about a solution like that? Or better ideas?

Then as a house rule fix, an extension to the normal fencing rule for easily allowing multiple parries (without big penalties) could be something like that: "You get no fencing bonus against melee weapons with a weight of 4 lbs and higher and not against weapons wielded with 2 hands, weighing more than 2.5 lbs".

Comments please ;)

belated edit: To clarify - the main point is the (questionable?) ability to make multiple parries with the rapier against heavy weapons (as per B405).

[Dr. Whom]

In reality its a big difference between the weapon being swung or trusted, as one is force on force (and in the case of fencing weapons may break), or redirection.

[Polydamas]

Google up the video or description of Tom Leoni parrying a full-speed, full-force longsword cut with a rapier blunt. A sturdy "rapier" can parry any low-tech weapon, although a flexible weapon might give trouble.

The fencing rules in the Basic Set are a bit odd and Martial Arts offers some more detailed optional rules. Its very hard to say what is realistic for lethal armed combat with weird weapons ... people who did it were usually too busy to analyze it, and people who play at it can only say what works under their rules.

[Sam Cade]

http://www.salvatorfabris.org/Rapier...ongsword.shtml

Like so.

[OldSam]

Well, yes, it's possible to parry with a rapier!
Maybe I was unclear with my question, my main point was about multiple parries with a rapier not a single parry. Or do you think that makes no difference?

To clarify: I wondered about the (questionable?) ability to make multiple parries with the rapier against heavy weapons just like against light blades (as per B405). Do you think that it's adequate/realistic to give only half of the usual penalties for fencing weapons?

Or would an alternative solution (as above) with normal penalties against heavier weapons be better?

[Polydamas]

Well, Tom was able to parry that longsword cut like any other cut. I can't say exactly how the situation in the real world would work out (because rapier fencing works best without armour, while you need lots of armour to play against staff weapons, and because situations involving multiple opponents are hard to analyze), but if some poor PC has three people swinging at them with big weapons in the same second why not err in their favour? Remember that a GURPS Parry does not necessary involve weapon-on-weapon contact.

I find that when its very hard to determine what is "realistic," its usually best not to make the rules more complicated for the sake of "realism."

In real life lot of those “big, heavy” weapons will weigh 3-6 pounds anyways, against 2-3 lbs for a sturdy rapier, and the rapier parry may be "stab him in the face when he raises his weapon to cut".

[Kromm]

Also, if you read about defense against multiple attackers, you consistently run into the concept of controlling distance and defending in depth. This means that unless the attackers are almost superhumanly well-coordinated, you parry the first one in a way that moves you out of the way of the next one and/or puts the first attacking weapon in the path of the second. You do the same thing unarmed, dealing with one attack in a way that puts the attacker's body in the way of the next attack. That's much of what the "fencing parry" is about in GURPS, really . . . knowing the footwork behind the nice theory. We extended that to long two-handed weapons in Martial Arts, and if we offered the abilities of combat skills piecemeal on a menu, it would probably be fair to make it learnable for other fighters.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by OldSam

To clarify: I wondered about the (questionable?) ability to make multiple parries with the rapier against heavy weapons just like against light blades (as per B405). Do you think that it's adequate/realistic to give only half of the usual penalties for fencing weapons?

Or would an alternative solution (as above) with normal penalties against heavier weapons be better?

Based on B376, B404-5, and

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

http://www.salvatorfabris.org/Rapier...ongsword.shtml

I don't think a house rule it out of line. The idea is that fencing parries enjoy a reduced penalty for multiple parries because it's easier for them to reset after a parry. The article Sam Cade linked to implies that for a fencer to successfully parry a heavier weapon, he might not be using the quick-reset type parrying typical of fencing styles but might actually be doing something more akin to an All Out Defense (Increased). (It should be said, what I know about fencing (and fighting in general) you can fit in a thimble.)

I'm thinking maybe a simpler house rule: as soon as "Parrying Heavy Weapon" rules [B376] come into effect, fencing parry bonuses rules cease to be in effect.

On the other hand, based on Kromm's post above, I'm not convinced any change to GURPS RAW is necessary.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Based on B376, B404-5, and I don't think a house rule it out of line. The idea is that fencing parries enjoy a reduced penalty for multiple parries because it's easier for them to reset after a parry. The article Sam Cade linked to implies that for a fencer to successfully parry a heavier weapon, he might not be using the quick-reset type parrying typical of fencing styles but might actually be doing something more akin to an All Out Defense (Increased). (It should be said, what I know about fencing (and fighting in general) you can fit in a thimble.)

I'm not a rapier fencer, but it sounds like Tom used a standard parry in seconde or quarte and thrust with opposition to me. You see those all over classical rapier fencing; they were the first parry in Niccoletto Giganti's curriculum published in 1606. In GURPS terms, its probably a Counterattack or Riposte.

[Graham1]

The usefulness and duration of each drill is entirely up to the fencers involved, though I personally do one or more of them every time I fence. All of these drills were taught to me by Don Martin Quicksilver.

These drills require a varied amount of skill and experience, though, in their basic forms, most of them should be accessible to the beginning fencer. While these drills are specifically designed to help with heavy rapier, it is certainly possible to benefit from doing these drills with light weapons.