How to create a Spear Fencer?

[aesir23]

Back to the OP:

A radical approach would be to get rid of fencing skills altogether: realistically, they're pretty questionable. Rapiers and Sabers use Broadsword, Smallswords (and fighting sticks) use Shortsword. Then, Fencing parries can be made into a technique:

Fencing Parry (Average)
Defaults to: Any Melee Weapon Parry -1, Cannot be improved above parry.

You've learned to keep the length of your weapon between you and your opponent, making retreating and multiple parries more effective. Retreats add +3 instead of the usual +1, and the penalties for parrying multiple attacks with the same weapon are halved.

These parries may not be used with unbalanced weapons, even you did not attack in the previous turn. Additionally, you may not attempt a Fencing parry on the round following a Swing unless it was a Defensive Attack (the Fencing Parry bonus replaces the usual bonuses for Defensive Attack in these cases). Fencing Parries rely on mobility, so this technique may not be attempted if you have Medium or greater encumbrance.

Break down: +2 to active Defenses (-4), Drawback (only retreats and multiple parries) +1, Drawback (limited swings) +1, Drawback (Limited Encumbrance (+1).


This has the additional advantage of reducing the number of Melee skills.

[VariousRen]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Back to the OP:

A radical approach would be to get rid of fencing skills altogether: realistically, they're pretty questionable. Rapiers and Sabers use Broadsword, Smallswords (and fighting sticks) use Shortsword. Then, Fencing parries can be made into a technique:

Fencing Parry (Average)
Defaults to: Any Melee Weapon Parry -1, Cannot be improved above parry.

You've learned to keep the length of your weapon between you and your opponent, making retreating and multiple parries more effective. Retreats add +3 instead of the usual +1, and the penalties for parrying multiple attacks with the same weapon are halved.

These parries may not be used with unbalanced weapons, even you did not attack in the previous turn. Additionally, you may not attempt a Fencing parry on the round following a Swing unless it was a Defensive Attack (the Fencing Parry bonus replaces the usual bonuses for Defensive Attack in these cases). Fencing Parries rely on mobility, so this technique may not be attempted if you have Medium or greater encumbrance.

Break down: +2 to active Defenses (-4), Drawback (only retreats and multiple parries) +1, Drawback (limited swings) +1, Drawback (Limited Encumbrance (+1).


This has the additional advantage of reducing the number of Melee skills.

I like this, and may be stealing it in the near future! Perhaps it should be limited by range as well though? As written a 5 yard long pike can still benefit from the fencing property when attacked by a knife wielder. Instead, only allow it to apply when attacked from the current max range of your weapon (and perhaps only from a normal grip, no defensive or reversed). This would benefit shorter faster weapons, but also give spear users some fun new stuff to take advantage of when they fight each other.

[Polydamas]

Just make sure you have followed all the implications of how that optional rule interacts with the rules and options in Martial Arts. The fencing RAW are only designed for one-handed weapons with a point of balance near the rear, or ones which are so short and light that they can move similarly anyways. There is probably room to fold Spear, Staff, and Lance into one skill if one is clever and audacious.

Originally Posted by aesir23

Sure, but it's important to remember that this has always been the case. It's not as though soldiers and duelists of the Renaissance trained full-speed with sharps.

This historical document gives some interesting insights into the safety precautions that were in place in 17th century France (“messieurs, protect the eyes”).

Sometimes they did! Check out Viggiani (who recommended that advanced students start to do their pair drills with sharps) and Manciolino (who thought that for new students to spar with sharps was a terrible idea ... but notice how he and V are talking about different things?) The basic idea that since no type of training is exactly like the real thing, its best to combine several with different limits, is common ... as are arguments about what kinds of practice are too dangerous.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Sure, but it's important to remember that this has always been the case. It's not as though soldiers and duelists of the Renaissance trained full-speed with sharps.

No but they fought full-speed with sharps.

[munin]

Originally Posted by aesir23

…Fencing Parry (Average)
Defaults to: Any Melee Weapon Parry -1, Cannot be improved above parry. …

Interesting.

I think I would add that, except for weapons designed for fencing parries, you must have 1.5×MinST to use a Fencing Parry with a weapon. Heavier weapons with their center of mass further away require greater (hand) strength to twitch around in fencing style. This would actually give fencers a reason to choose fencing weapons.

I don't like "you can't do that" rules, so I would just use the normal encumbrance penalties to parries instead of a max encumbrance.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by VariousRen

Instead, only allow it to apply when attacked from the current max range of your weapon (and perhaps only from a normal grip, no defensive or reversed). This would benefit shorter faster weapons, but also give spear users some fun new stuff to take advantage of when they fight each other.

Worth considering. I don't know about making it max reach, though. After all, Rapiers have reach 1,2!

Originally Posted by munin

Interesting.

I think I would add that, except for weapons designed for fencing parries, you must have 1.5×MinST to use a Fencing Parry with a weapon. Heavier weapons with their center of mass further away require greater (hand) strength to twitch around in fencing style. This would actually give fencers a reason to choose fencing weapons.

I don't like "you can't do that" rules, so I would just use the normal encumbrance penalties to parries instead of a max encumbrance.

Hmm, both good points. I'd have to look though, to see if the minST of fencing weapon might already be lower than similar non-fencing weapons. It might be that I don't have to make a special exception. The encumbrance thing I'll definitely change, though.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

J
Sometimes they did! Check out Viggiani (who recommended that advanced students start to do their pair drills with sharps) and Manciolino (who thought that for new students to spar with sharps was a terrible idea ... but notice how he and V are talking about different things?)

Yes, people have practiced full-speed, and they have practiced with sharps. They have not, I'll wager, done both at once.

Originally Posted by jason taylor

No but they fought full-speed with sharps.

Yes, but how much in a lifetime? How much did their real fights contribute to the development of their skill? Even the most famous historical swordsmen tend to have 15 or so earnest duels to their credit (Musashi Miyamoto had 60, it's the highest count I've heard of).

I've only been studying sword play for under a year, and I've easily had over 100 sparring sessions. Does that mean I've had more practice than Musashi? No, of course not. It means that he also trained and practiced by other means, including, I'm sure, non-lethal sparing of some sort.

[munin]

Originally Posted by aesir23

… I'd have to look though, to see if the minST of fencing weapon might already be lower than similar non-fencing weapons. It might be that I don't have to make a special exception. …

Only by a point or two. Making it an across-the-board rule would effectively restrict fencers to ST 12+ characters, which doesn't seem quite right. It's not that much of a barrier, but fencing weapons shouldn't require that much, I think.

Also -- I said I don't like "You can't do that" rules … right after I suggested a "You can't do that" rule. Instead of requiring 1.5×MinST to use a Fencing Parry, if you try to use a Fencing Parry with a non-fencing weapon with less than 1.5×MinST, your Fencing Parry will be at -1 per point of ST you lack (or maybe just the underlying skill is at a penalty, like the normal ST rules for weapons? that might work).

EDIT: Also, according to MA93, all defensive techniques should be Hard.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Fencing Parry (Average)
Defaults to: Any Melee Weapon Parry -1, Cannot be improved above parry.

You've learned to keep the length of your weapon between you and your opponent, making retreating and multiple parries more effective. Retreats add +3 instead of the usual +1, and the penalties for parrying multiple attacks with the same weapon are halved.

These parries may not be used with unbalanced weapons, even you did not attack in the previous turn. Additionally, you may not attempt a Fencing parry on the round following a Swing unless it was a Defensive Attack (the Fencing Parry bonus replaces the usual bonuses for Defensive Attack in these cases). Fencing Parries rely on mobility, so this technique may not be attempted if you have Medium or greater encumbrance.

Break down: +2 to active Defenses (-4), Drawback (only retreats and multiple parries) +1, Drawback (limited swings) +1, Drawback (Limited Encumbrance (+1).

As I understand it, the virtual "Fencing" modifier in GURPS is about an overall way of fighting with a given weapon, not just about Parrying - note Rapier and similar take Encumbrance penalties to attacks as well as defenses. That's why when I made my skills Overhaul (one of the many reworks of the Skill system out there) I had "Footwork" be an option for an entire skill.
I'll also note that your Technique has a serious risk of being "every fighter ever has this." Unless you're using weapons that are incapable of benefiting, or are essentially always going to be at Medium+ encumbrance, getting an additional +2 to defense anytime you Retreat - or Slip/Sideslip - is well worth the [2] investment (or [3], if you upgrade it to Hard).

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Yes, but how much in a lifetime? How much did their real fights contribute to the development of their skill? Even the most famous historical swordsmen tend to have 15 or so earnest duels to their credit (Musashi Miyamoto had 60, it's the highest count I've heard of).

As participant or witness? A given master would have enough material for a number of fights if he was studying the subject not to mention exchanging data with other masters.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

As participant or witness? A given master would have enough material for a number of fights if he was studying the subject not to mention exchanging data with other masters.

The context is a conversation about practicing with live blades and real fights. Witness falls right under the "other ways to practice" that you cut out of your reply.