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Old 04-13-2019, 06:19 PM   #1
Terwin
 
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Default Using someone else's skill

If you are in a situation where the character with the needed skill is not able to physically interact with the target, but an ally of theirs can, how would you handle that?

Examples:
* emergency surgery/repairs over teleconference
* Surgeon/mechanic with crippled hands looking over the shoulder of an unskilled worker
* Implanted AI providing instructions

note: this is not normal complementary skill usage, as the person with the needed skill cannot actually perform the needed actions.

I was thinking that a teaching roll from the skill user and an IQ or DX roll(as appropriate) from the manipulator could work as complementary skills with the base skill starting with a -2 to -4 penalty(so a success on both teaching and IQ/DX would allow the skill to be used at -0 to -2)
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Old 04-14-2019, 12:39 AM   #2
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Default Re: Using someone else's skill

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(Tactical Dot of Observation)
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Old 04-14-2019, 12:52 AM   #3
Andreas
 
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Default Re: Using someone else's skill

For many skills, it could be handled as a task difficulty modifier for the ally. They are just using you as an intermediate rather than doing it directly themselves (just like one could for example paint a painting with remotely controlled robot arms). The size of the TDM would vary greatly with the kind of task and the ability of the one taking instructions. Using a compentent instructee to answer math questions might have a TDM of 0, but instructing somone in sword fighting might be impossible (or at least have an enormously large penalty).
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Old 04-14-2019, 08:19 AM   #4
evileeyore
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Default Re: Using someone else's skill

Firstly, I would only allow this for tasks that could take at least twice* as long as normal without any Task Modifiers.

In an Action campaign I'd probably just treat the Character performing the task as having either half the points invested in the skill as the "advice giver" or a +2 to their default† in the skill‡, whichever is higher.

In a "gritty heroism"§ campaign I'd allow it to be treated as a critical success in a Complimentary Skill (so +2 to the task performer's default† in the skill).

In a "completely realistic" campaign I'd require the advice giver to actually roll their skill for the Complimentary Skill bonus/penalty.



* So I'd double (at a minimum!) how long the task required and then if they decided to take longer allow Time Use bonuses from there.

† For skills with no defaults I always allow a default at "one tier worse", so Easy with a -4 would become -5, Average with a -5 becomes -6, Hard becomes -7, Very Hard becomes -8.

‡ For Wildcards skills used by the Advice Giver, that's rough. My brain says to figure out how many points the Character would have needed to invest in the individual skill to get it at the Wildcard level. My Action gut says "Half Wildcard skill level if a bonus, +2 to default otherwise".

§ Call it halfway between Action and hardcore realism, so maybe some of the Action tropes (Impulse Buys, Complimentary Skills, a few Cinematic Combat options) but with optional 'hard mode' stuff turned on (Like Bleeding, Optional Crippling Rules, Last Gasp, the full Tactical Combat Rules, etc).
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Old 04-14-2019, 08:44 AM   #5
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Default Re: Using someone else's skill

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Firstly, I would only allow this for tasks that could take at least twice* as long as normal without any Task Modifiers.
How would you handle the classic "talking a civilian through landing an airliner because all the pilots are incapacitated" bit?
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Old 04-14-2019, 08:57 AM   #6
Kromm
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Default Re: Using someone else's skill

What's probably most realistic is to have the person doing the task use their default (attribute -4, -5, -6, or -7, for E, A, H, or VH skills without defaults), and to have the person who knows the skill function as a "manual" that allows the default attempt. Per High-Tech, p. 17, extra time is typical, and gives the bonuses under Time Spent (p. B346) – but these can at most remove the default penalty.

To make the skill of the instructor somewhat relevant, let them roll against the lower of the skill for the task or Teaching skill. Treat the result like a complementary skill roll. A bonus can raise the effective skill of the person doing the task above default, but never above the skill of the person talking them through the task.

Example: Officer Frank has IQ 11 and no clue about Explosives (EOD), but he's stuck in a Speed situation and has no choice but to disarm a bomb on a moving bus. The PD patches him through to Sergeant Linda at the police academy, who teaches EOD; she has Explosives (EOD)-15 and Teaching-12. This lets Frank work at default, or IQ-5, which is 6 or less. Luckily, the Mad Bomber doesn't have the bomb on a clock, so as long as the Rosie the bus driver can keep the bus rolling, there's no firm time limit. The attempt would normally take 5 minutes (Action 2, p. 28), but with the police clearing the roads, Rosie can give Frank 20 minutes before running out of options; 4× time gives +2, raising Frank's effective skill to 8, which is still less than his cap of 11 for extra time. Linda rolls against the lower of her two skills, or 12, and gets a 10, giving Frank +1. Frank's final effective skill is 9, which is well below Linda's 15.

If the person who has the skill can be "telepresent" via real-time audio and video, and effectively use the person doing the task as a very crude remote-control robot that makes a lot of mistakes, I'd use the same rules but double the complementary skill bonus (+2 on success, +4 on critical success). In the example, if Frank put his phone on speaker and had a helpful citizen hold the camera where Linda could see the bomb while Frank worked, Linda's success would count for +2 and Frank's effective skill would be 10.

This isn't very generous, because in real life, it's a crappy way to do anything – ask anybody who has ever worked tech support and had to talk someone through a procedure instead of starting a remote session. Generally, stories of success involve the maximum extra time bonus of +5. In a cinematic campaign, cinematically high attributes and Luck will make this much more likely to succeed. If Frank were an ultimate action hero (Pyramid #3/53, p. 5) with IQ 13 and Luck, he'd be rolling at 11 or 12 instead of 9 or 10 . . . and he could try three times, which is like having an effective skill 15 or 16.
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Old 04-14-2019, 09:08 AM   #7
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Default Re: Using someone else's skill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollonian View Post

How would you handle the classic "talking a civilian through landing an airliner because all the pilots are incapacitated" bit?
I'd use the rules I just presented without a bonus for extra time. That isn't likely to end well, but don't overlook that airliner controls have a high degree of automation. That's probably good for a built-in +1 or +2 (quality) for standard tasks like takeoffs and landings. Also, telemetry from the liner would automatically double the complementary skill bonus, like telepresence. And in a cinematic game, the GM might allow a second complementary skill bonus for the ground team, clearing all the runways to give the "pilot" multiple options, and using the lights to signal exactly where and when to do what.

So an ordinary IQ 10 person with a default of 4 might get +2 for controls, +2 for being talked through the process by a real pilot who can read the liner's telemetry and see the blip on the radar, and +1 for having an entire airport ready to receive them on any level surface, for 9. That's still pretty iffy, but a smart person would do better, and a lucky person would do better still.
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Old 04-14-2019, 09:51 AM   #8
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Default Re: Using someone else's skill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollonian View Post
How would you handle the classic "talking a civilian through landing an airliner because all the pilots are incapacitated" bit?
Realistic or Hollywoodism?

Realistic: Typically there is plenty of time to land a plane, it can be set to circle the skies at a safe altitude for quite a while before the newb pilot has to actually bring it in. In an "OH NO! There's only enough fuel to bring it in and it's already screaming towards the runway!" situation, whelp, they're taking less time (minimum half the time) so I hope the replacement pilot has Luck or a real good default (preferably both)...

Hollywoodism: See the above "OH NO!" line and then apply the Action variant of my quickie rules. I mean, it's an Action game so we all know you never get enough time to actually properly land a plane, but as Kromm notes, Action heroes tend to have the innate talent and Luck to pull these sorts of stunts off.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
To make the skill of the instructor somewhat relevant, let them roll against the lower of the skill for the task or Teaching skill. Treat the result like a complementary skill roll
Also don't forget to apply the Time Use bonus (or penalty) to this roll. I find a lot of Players don't realize this.
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Old 04-14-2019, 12:41 PM   #9
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Using someone else's skill

The popularity of the Hollywood version dates from the 1970s. I think Boeing demonstrated automatic takeoff and landing sometime in the 80s, but it never really caught on. Most modern airliners are capable of automatic landing at properly equipped airports, but it's still not a commonly used feature -- not least because the automation still requires some babysitting and the pilots have to configure the aircraft, as the autopilot can't always push all the right buttons and levers -- and at the least, has to be commanded when and where to do its autolanding.

Here's "Captain Joe" on YouTube talking an untrained "passenger" through landing an A320 -- simulated, of course. The passenger has to turn a couple of knobs and pull a lever here and there.

In general, I'd agree with Kromm. The skilled person is like having a good manual (an AI manual that's smart enough to understand your problem, even, and make guesses about what you need to know). Give a bonus to whatever skill the low-skill person has, which is probably a default.

I'd assess an extra penalty (or lower bonus) to DX-based skills. If they're properly DX-based, then you need some physical training, muscle memory, learned reflexes, and so on. Having someone watching your boxing match on TV and yelling "Duck! ... Left! Left! Body blow!" into a mike isn't going to help a lot...
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Old 04-14-2019, 05:58 PM   #10
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Default Re: Using someone else's skill

We have a house rule where you can be a helper. For every 2 you succeed with your skill, you can add 1 to the doers skill. This won't work on everything, but there are a lot of situations where you can team up and work together.

Typically, we have the best person be the "doer" and the others be a "helper".

Of course, if they do poorly, that can hurt your own ability to succeed as well. So, everyone involved sort of needs to be competent.

We haven't put it into play that much, so I'm sure there could be issues with this way. The idea is to encourage teamwork and discourage glory hogging. Often times EVERYONE in our group wants to be the hero, to first aid the dying person, to disarm the bomb, to pick the lock, to hack the computer, etc. Those of us that aren't the loudmouths screaming out,"I'm going to do it!!" can still get some play.

An interesting example of this is from a Mythbusters episode where Jami and Adam both tried to land an airplane. They both crashed badly. But with some audio instruction, they both landed the plane very well.

Last edited by Boge; 04-14-2019 at 06:07 PM.
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