Multi-Aim: What is it good for?

[tbone]

Per the title. This one has long puzzled me.

Say my bow-wielding scout has Multi-Aim. Scenarios:

a) Multi-Aim 1, no Aim, one or more targets (orcs): Multi-Aim does nothing.
b) Multi-Aim 1, one or two turns of Aim, one orc: The scout gains the usual +1 or +2 TH bonus for Aim, but Multi-Aim does nothing.
c) Multi-Aim 1, one turn of Aim, two orcs: The scout can choose either orc to shoot, with +1 TH for Aim.
d) Multi-Aim 1: two turns of Aim, two orcs: The scout can choose either orc to shoot, with +2 TH for Aim.
e) Multi-Aim 2+: As c) or d), but the scout can specify more orcs as valid targets earning the +1 or +2 TH bonus from Aim.

So. Multi-Aim does nothing in a) and b), which is fine; they're not scenarios made for the trait.

Scenarios c) to e) are of interest. In those scenarios, the trait's mechanics are fine; Multi-Aim clearly benefits the scout in unusual "aim at several targets" situations. (I believe we get the same outcomes in similar scenarios involving Wait, Aim, and opportunity fire at orcs popping up in doorways.)

My beef is with cost. Any time the scout uses Multi-Aim 1 with one second of Aim, he can enjoy slapping that +1 TH onto either orc - until he realizes that instead of paying 6 points for Multi-Aim, he could have paid just 4 points for another level of Bow, netting the same +1 with any shot, aimed or unaimed, against any of one or two or three or a hundred orcs.

There is one sweet spot for Multi-Aim: scenario d). Here, 6-point Multi-Aim 1 lets the scout claim +2 TH against either of two orcs, versus 8 points for another two levels of Bow skill. So Multi-Aim 1 costs 2 points less - but again, all it gets the character is +2 TH vs a single designated alternate target, only after two turns of Aim. 8 points in Bow would buy +2 TH vs any target, any time, with no Aim or in addition to Aim bonuses, and +2 to other Bow skill rolls (like Heroic Archer's quick-nocking roll).

And two or more levels of Multi-Aim? My scout's appalled at the idea. Pay 12, 18, 24, or more points just to nab +1 or +2 TH, only with Aim, only in that unusual situation of wanting to aim first and pick a target later... all while 4 or 8 points in Bow would do the same and much more.

I don't get it. The one merit of Multi-Aim I can think of is this: Multi-Aim works for any ranged skill, not a single specified one like Bow. So the party thief or knight could take Multi-Aim, and benefit whether using a bow or spear or dart or whatever. And the Aim bonus gained against added orcs wouldn't be just +1 or +2 TH; it'd include the weapon's Acc bonus, too. So that makes the trait maybe attractive to other professions...

...who normally can't have it. It's solely for scouts, who benefit the least: they'll use a bow 99% of the time, and Multi-Aim doesn't even nab them an Acc bonus vs alternate targets (as they already get a bow's Acc bonus, automatically).

Multi-Aim seems a poor buy for any PC, especially a scout. The effects are spiffy enough, I suppose, but it seems it should be much cheaper. What am I missing??

(And assuming I'm not talking nonsense: Has anyone repriced Multi-Aim, or beefed it up, or both?)

[kirbwarrior]

Regular Aim is already so niche in use during combat that I've never seen the appeal of Enhanced Tracking. Multi-Aim sounds like ET with an enhancement that you can Aim at multiple targets without needing multiple weapons.

What makes a lot more sense to me (going into House-Rule territory) is to remove the leveled part of the trait. Multi-Aim costing a flat [6] to let you Aim at any number of targets is a niche but useful trait with an interesting trade-off in points compared to buying up skill, making you actually want to Aim in combat instead of it being a largely pre-combat maneuver.

(I don't have DF, only GURPS. If I knew exactly the mechanics I might be willing to further drop the price, too.)

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

(I don't have DF, only GURPS. If I knew exactly the mechanics I might be willing to further drop the price, too.)

I think that is what it is too. Enhanced Tracking with Multiple Lock-ons, +20% [6].
Trouble s the way its worded makes it seem like something less.
The example says
Quote "For instance, with Multi-Aim 2, you could cover three widely spaced doorways and get extra Aim bonuses (+1 or +2) against anyone emerging from any of them."
The explanation above that does not mention per level so its probably just limited by the typical acc here of DF weaponry.
This advantage is much more useful in higher tech settings with better Acc weapons.
Letting it apply to bonuses from Telescopic Vision or similar spells is I think appropriate and makes it more useful.

[Kallatari]

The problem is not Multi-Aim on its own, but rather its combination with Heroic Archer.

Multi-Aim on its own is a decent trait. It lets you aim at multiple targets to get the Acc bonus on multiple targets, so you can pick and choose who to shoot at and still get +Acc to hit..

Heroic Archer is a trait that removes the need to Aim as you get the Acc bonus automatically. (Sure, you can still Aim two turns for an additional +2, but in general, Heroic Archer = don't bother aiming)

So when you combine Heroic Archer with Multi-Aim, you're basically saying "Thanks to Heroic Archer, I don't need to Multi-Aim". So yeah, Multi-Aim is effectively becomes worthless other than in very niche situations.

You seem to imply the DF template forces you to take both (and I don't have access to look it up right now to confirm). I personally would see that as a bad idea and instead change the template to pick one or the other. The obvious pick will be Heroic Archer, unless you're on a budget in which case you might want Multi-Aim. I would also allow them to "upgrade" Multi-Aim to Heroic Archer.

Now, of course, that's just looking at it from a "combat perspective" and adding Aiming bonus. Multi-Aim is actually about tracking multiple targets, so it could allow you to keep track of the activities of a multiple different people in different areas; e.g., keeping an eye on guards in multiple different watch towers simultaneously to see if anyone of them is looking your way. So it can have some benefits Heroic Archer doesn't, but those situations are also rather niche, and usually won't really come up in a game in a manner in which this would actually provide a concrete benefit (so you can track 3 different guards.. what benefits does that give you?). The GM would need to make a scenario specifically to let the player take advantage of that.

Personally, I'd drop Multi-Aim as a valid character trait, especially if Heroic Archer is already mandatory.

[Expy]

If I’m remembering correctly, in the old version of DF, Multi Aim was added with the power ups book, along with Dual Weapon Attack (Bow). DWA let you nock two arrows together to fire at two different targets with one attack but if you wanted to claim your free Heroic Archer aim bonus against both, you needed Multi Aim. There were similar rules for covering doorways, if you wanted your heroic archer bonus on multiple openings you needed Multi Aim. Definitely niche though.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Heroic Archer is a trait that removes the need to Aim as you get the Acc bonus automatically. (Sure, you can still Aim two turns for an additional +2, but in general, Heroic Archer = don't bother aiming)

tbone has a really nice little houserule that changes the bonus equal to the number of seconds you aim (bumping the bonus from +0-2 to +1-3). It's rare, but I've actually seen someone Aim with Gunslinger in combat because of that houserule. I don't know if it's enough to make you want to get Heroic Archer + Multi-Aim, but knowing you still get some bonus from Aim even just for one second can be useful.

(Thinking on it more, I actually forgot this was a houserule until this thread, the bonus = turns is just so simple to remember)

[sir_pudding]

The Scout can take Telescopic Vision, so there is a benefit for aiming for long distance shots, even with Heroic Archer.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

What makes a lot more sense to me (going into House-Rule territory) is to remove the leveled part of the trait. Multi-Aim costing a flat [6] to let you Aim at any number of targets is a niche but useful trait...

Well, I think I'd pass on the idea that one level covers any number of targets. It'd mean the scout (etc.) never needs to aim at any specific targets; she can essentially say "I use Aim against everything"... : )

But I'm certainly in favor of beefing up the number of extra Aim targets in some fashion, with the simplest method being "slash the advantage's cost". (Could even get overly clever and let each level of Multi-Aim add not +1 target but an ever-increasing number of targets, taken from the trusty Size and Speed/Range Table...)

Originally Posted by Refplace

This advantage is much more useful in higher tech settings with better Acc weapons.

Yep, that's the crux. I can see a high-tech PC mulling Enhanced Tracking so he can apply Aim (and Evaluate!) against multiple targets, using any number of potential skills, enjoying Aim's per-second TH bonuses and high-tech Acc bonus, all of which becomes even more awesome if firing two or more guns at once. I get the appeal, and it's a great trait for building, say, a combat bot with multiple guns having independent targeting capabilities.

But it seems a much worse deal for low-tech PCs, especially that DFRPG scout using just one skill to fire one weapon that already gets the Acc bonus.

Letting it apply to bonuses from Telescopic Vision or similar spells is I think appropriate and makes it more useful.

Agreed. Multi-Aim would be more useful if it also aided the scout in simply watching 2+ targets at once. (That's not something addressed in text anywhere, AFAIK; it'd be a matter for GM discretion, as Kallatari notes, but it's an interesting situation all the same. Idea: Levels of Multi-Aim could reduce any Observation penalties applied by the GM for trying to watch 2+ things at once.) All even more useful when further aided by Telescopic Vision.

Originally Posted by Kallatari

The problem is not Multi-Aim on its own, but rather its combination with Heroic Archer.

Yep, that combo is a big part of the problem for scouts. Reminds me of how both Trained By a Master and Weapon Master halve your penalties for rapid attacks and parries... and if you buy both, you pay twice for that component. Too bad for you.

I'd prefer to see trait write-ups avoid that sort of double whammy...

Originally Posted by Expy

If I’m remembering correctly, in the old version of DF, Multi Aim was added with the power ups book, along with Dual Weapon Attack (Bow). DWA let you nock two arrows together to fire at two different targets with one attack but if you wanted to claim your free Heroic Archer aim bonus against both, you needed Multi Aim.

If DFRPG were to introduce "fire two arrows at once", with Multi-Aim greatly aiding the ability to shoot at two targets at once, that would make the trait worth another look!

Originally Posted by sir pudding

The Scout can take Telescopic Vision, so there is a benefit for aiming for long distance shots, even with Heroic Archer.

Yeah, Telescopic Vision can make Aim pretty nice. And even without it, there's nothing at all wrong with a nice bit of Aim, even for a super-scout, when the time is available and every bit of TH counts.

Multi-Aim can make all of that even more interesting at times. But not at that cost! Yikes!

===

So. To turn Multi-Aim into something useful for our scouts, methinks it needs to be rebuilt from Enhanced Tracking with a few new limitations:

• Cannot Be Used with Evaluate (which doesn't exist in DFRPG)
• One Weapon Only (it'd sensibly be a bow-specific thing for scouts)
• Weapon Acc Does Not Apply to Extra Targets (because the scout has already paid for "weapon Acc applies everywhere" as a part of Heroic Archer)

Maybe even add an enhancement:

• Aids in Watching Multiple Targets (as noted up above)

Values for those? I don't know. But as for final cost...

For Multi-Aim as written, I gotta say: even if it were a wildly-low 1/level, I don't know that I'd raise an eyebrow!

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by tbone

Well, I think I'd pass on the idea that one level covers any number of targets. It'd mean the scout (etc.) never needs to aim at any specific targets; she can essentially say "I use Aim against everything"... : )

...

For Multi-Aim as written, I gotta say: even if it were a wildly-low 1/level, I don't know that I'd raise an eyebrow!

That's actually what I thought might be fair. 6pts to be able to Aim at every single target, which still costs an action, might be fine. And there's definitely diminishing returns on each level, so there's very likely some fair finite price for infinite targets. 20pts is a +1 to all weapon skills all the time, so it's less than that, and Heroic Archer/Gunslinger gives us a price for always having full Acc (depending on the weapon) with tons of extra benefits.

If we drop the price per level to 1pt, then 6 levels being the max sounds good, too. Each level could be two steps on SS/R which lets you choose 2/5/10/20/50/Inifinite targets. I now want to figure out the price for infinite Aim targets and work backwards to turn it into a leveled trait.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by tbone

• Cannot Be Used with Evaluate (which doesn't exist in DFRPG)
• One Weapon Only (it'd sensibly be a bow-specific thing for scouts)
• Weapon Acc Does Not Apply to Extra Targets (because the scout has already paid for "weapon Acc applies everywhere" as a part of Heroic Archer)

Maybe even add an enhancement:

• Aids in Watching Multiple Targets (as noted up above)

Values for those? I don't know. But as for final cost...

For Multi-Aim as written, I gotta say: even if it were a wildly-low 1/level, I don't know that I'd raise an eyebrow!

Allowing DWA for bows in DFRPG would make a big difference. Especially if Heroic Archer only adds Acc if you are shooting at one target.