New Reality Seeds

[patchwork]

Originally Posted by fchase8

That is a great set-up, but begs the question why a more successful Napoleon wouldn't invade Russia? He did it in real life when he still had to worry about Wellington - would seemingly be even more likely to in this scenario.

Scramble the marriages. Paul I had ten children, five sons and five daughters. Make one of the daughters Napoleon's second wife instead of Marie Louise of Austria and say Napoleon thinks it uncouth to wage war on his in-laws.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by patchwork

Scramble the marriages. Paul I had ten children, five sons and five daughters. Make one of the daughters Napoleon's second wife instead of Marie Louise of Austria and say Napoleon thinks it uncouth to wage war on his in-laws.

The invasion of Russia was fairly late in the Napoleonic War (1812) and more or less entirely due to the Russian unwillingness to enforce Napoleon's plan to cut all European trade with England. If he's winning otherwise maybe he doesn't care all that much about the embargo. If somebody else is violating it worse then they're an earlier target (as indeed the Peninsular War already in progress was largely pretexted on). If something else is keeping him busy, maybe he can't spare the troops for Russia - the Peninsular War presumably goes pretty different without Wellington, ordinarily you'd expect that to [benefit] France but maybe it doesn't. The Ottomans are also a potential variable, not at all happy with Napoleon and his exploits in Egypt, but historically occupied enough with internal matters to play much of a role in the war. Selim III, a miltary reformer and himself a prophesied world conqueror, is overthrown as a consequence of a Jannissary revolt in 1808. If things are going better for him, Napoleon may [need] his traditional Russian foes as allies too much to worry about smuggling.

[Astromancer]

MALLOYD, a complex multilayered war between Napoleon and a renewed Ottoman Empire could be epic. It is notable that Napoleon's military tactics only seemed to work in environments were the Enlightenment had taken hold. That is to say that if an area has had enough economic development for the Enlightenment to be attractive to a substantial proportion of the local population, then Napoleon's military tactics tend to work there. Spain, Russia, and Egypt, all areas where Napoleon was not successful in the long run, all largely either rejected or ignored the Enlightenment.

A battle between the French Empire and the Ottoman State, especially if it took place in an area that might be described as a borderland for the Enlightenment, might be a good match. Given the fear Europeans of this period had of the Turks Napoleon might gain unusual allies.

Fun inspiration MALLOYD!

[fchase8]

Originally Posted by patchwork

Scramble the marriages. Paul I had ten children, five sons and five daughters. Make one of the daughters Napoleon's second wife instead of Marie Louise of Austria and say Napoleon thinks it uncouth to wage war on his in-laws.

Apparently Napoleon had originally wanted to marry Tsar Alexander's sister Anna, but the Czar said she was too young. Have a stronger Napoleon without Wellington, and perhaps Alexander allows it.

And without the marriage-alliance with Austria, but instead with Russia, perhaps not annex the Duchy of Oldenburg (whose duke was Alexander's uncle), and perhaps there is no war. Particularly if the Peninsular War, without Wellington, is going better for Napoleon, Tsar Alexander doesn't allow trade with Britain, thus no war. Instead, they are allied against the U.K., at least somewhat.


I still think Napoleon would want to go to war with someone, even if not Russia. He seemingly had a need to be out in the field, constantly going to war. Maybe finally attempting to invade the U.K.? A return to Egypt? At least maybe an invasion of Algeria (as happened in reality)?

Though it would be more interesting, a better world to roleplay in, if it's a cold peace, three-part diplomatic/proxy war between France, U.K., and Russia, rivaling over not just Europe from Iberia to the Baltic, but also the Ottoman Empire & India.

And don't forget about the Americas! The U.S. would want to stay out of Old World wars, but there's the Spanish & Portuguese American empires that Napoleon would consider his for ruling Iberia, but protected by the British navy (not to mention having their own independence movements that broke out after the Napoleonic Wars in real life). Meanwhile, the British might want to seize the French & Dutch islands in the Caribbean to keep Napoleon out of there, which would upset Washington.

[Astromancer]

Although ignored in European history books, remember that the Wars with the Barbary pirates are in this period. The fact that a minor power, and the US is very minor at this point, humiliated these kingdoms charged the view of the Barbary kingdoms in Europe from potential threats to potential colonies. In an alternative Napoleonic game Napoleon and Britain might compete to conquer Algers or Tunis.

[dcarson]

If he has Spain and can take Morocco that give control of the entrance to the Mediterranean. That could be tempting.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by dcarson

If he has Spain and can take Morocco that give control of the entrance to the Mediterranean. That could be tempting.

And a serious threat to Britain. America might be threatened too. Way to heat up a cold war.

[fchase8]

Originally Posted by dcarson

If he has Spain and can take Morocco that give control of the entrance to the Mediterranean. That could be tempting.

Would be classic Napoleon to invade Morocco, perhaps even Algiers & Tunis, even when Peninsular War is ongoing. Could be an outlet for his need for military glory if he's not gonna invade Russia.

Would have an epic battle for Gibraltar, to close off the Mediterranean to Britain.


Meanwhile over in the Americas, Portugal's Dom John VI is ruling Brazil in exile - with his wife Carlota Joaquina, the elder sister of imprisoned Ferdinand VII of Spain. Also imprisoned is her father, Charles IV, who Ferdinand overthrew in 1808 and briefly tried to reclaim his throne with Napoleon's help, but Napoleon's brother Joseph Bonaparte was chosen instead.

In reality, Carlota conspired against her husband in Brazil, and tried to claim the throne of Spain (Carlotism). If there's a longer Peninsular War, longer exile of both pre-war Iberian kings, perhaps she gets the support from Britain and viceroys that she didn't in real life.

Meanwhile, the U.S. wouldn't like not one, but two Americas-based empires to the south, satraps of London just like most of the Caribbean. Washington might try some covert support for independence movements, maybe based out of the Americas only other truly independent nation, Haiti (though try to keep it secret, to avoid upsetting everyone from the British to pro-slavery southerners).

[dcarson]

If Haiti doesn't have the "repay" France because of that that makes for major changes to Haiti's future. The 150 millions francs they had to pay and interest wasn't paid off until 1947.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by dcarson

If Haiti doesn't have the "repay" France because of that that makes for major changes to Haiti's future. The 150 millions francs they had to pay and interest wasn't paid off until 1947.

Yes, but they still have to grapple with an economy that doesn't work if you can't just let your workers die en masse and maintaining a strong enough military to resist neighbouring countries from taking out an ideological and economic opponent.