Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-06-2023, 04:27 PM   #11
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Can you hook with a hatchet RAW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
I'd allow it to tug at a shield, but three and a half inches of "hook" just doesn't allow for any real purchase. You could impede the foe's Block, but no one's going to be disarming anyone with a hatchet short of "I whack the guy in the arm for enough damage to force a drop."
I agree. That's what I was thinking when I mentioned the shield hook technique. You have just enough purchase to pull on a shield to force an opening that you can strike through or just enough leverage to prevent the shield's user from blocking.

To disarm a shield user using an axe, you need a blade which can somehow "lock" onto the shield's edge, allowing a hard pull to wrench the shield from the foe's hand. That requires a proper hook or equivalent. Even then, that trick only works with buckler-style shields. A shield strapped to an opponent's arm isn't going anyplace without seriously damaging the arm in the process.
Pursuivant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2023, 09:16 AM   #12
Donny Brook
 
Donny Brook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Snoopy's basement
Default Re: Can you hook with a hatchet RAW?

The rules say axes can hook. Hatchets are small axes. Case closed.
Donny Brook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2023, 09:45 AM   #13
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Can you hook with a hatchet RAW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
The rules say axes can hook. Hatchets are small axes. Case closed.
To be fair, the rules say most axes can hook, meaning there are some that cannot. I'd argue that the exceptions are going to be rare axes that have the blade basically curve out from the handle (like this, absent the backspike/hook, or like the one seen near the end of this comic), rather than things like hatchets, but the books don't say one way or the other.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2023, 05:42 PM   #14
RGTraynor
 
RGTraynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pioneer Valley
Default Re: Can you hook with a hatchet RAW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
To disarm a shield user using an axe, you need a blade which can somehow "lock" onto the shield's edge, allowing a hard pull to wrench the shield from the foe's hand. That requires a proper hook or equivalent. Even then, that trick only works with buckler-style shields. A shield strapped to an opponent's arm isn't going anyplace without seriously damaging the arm in the process.
Quite. I'm holding the hatchet in a one-handed grip (perforce) against someone holding a shield by means of straps to his arm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
The rules say axes can hook. Hatchets are small axes. Case closed.
Quite aside from the plain text of RAW, cited by three separate posters, let's just apply some common sense here, shall we? If you don't own one, trot down to your nearest hardware or camping store and put a hatchet in your hand. Now take up a reasonable fighting stance. Now visualize exactly what it would take for you to reach out to deliver a meaningful Hook technique with that <4" of purchase on (a) an armed opponent at normal engagement range, who (b) is not unreasonably going to object to you doing so, and (c) may well have the minimal skills necessary to react to the overextension to which you need to commit to have a snowball's chance in hell to pull it off.
__________________
My gaming blog: Apotheosis of the Invisible City

"Call me old-fashioned, but after you're dead, I don't think you should be entitled to a Dodge any more." - my wife

It's not that I don't understand what you're saying. It's that I disagree with what you're saying.
RGTraynor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2023, 06:03 PM   #15
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Can you hook with a hatchet RAW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
Quite aside from the plain text of RAW, cited by three separate posters, let's just apply some common sense here, shall we? If you don't own one, trot down to your nearest hardware or camping store and put a hatchet in your hand. Now take up a reasonable fighting stance. Now visualize exactly what it would take for you to reach out to deliver a meaningful Hook technique with that <4" of purchase on (a) an armed opponent at normal engagement range, who (b) is not unreasonably going to object to you doing so, and (c) may well have the minimal skills necessary to react to the overextension to which you need to commit to have a snowball's chance in hell to pull it off.
I lack any training or experience with axe fighting (I have some unarmed martial arts experience, and engaged in no small number of mock duels with sword-analogues when younger, but nothing with axes), or with any sort of combat usage of hooks. But as for the old held-together-by-duck-tape hatchet I have in my shed, I have used to manipulate objects (piece of wood for cutting, things in my way, etc) in the same manner as a hook, with good results. Sure, a polearm or similar Reach 2 weapon would probably be better, or at least something that's a longer Reach 1 weapon (hatchets are fairly short for Reach 1), but at GURPS levels of resolution I don't see a huge issue with allowing a hatchet to hook. I think the "most axes" bit was meant to exclude those axes that are literally incapable of hooking, such as the ones I referenced in my post, not those that simply aren't necessarily optimal for it.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2023, 01:19 AM   #16
Prince Charon
 
Prince Charon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Default Re: Can you hook with a hatchet RAW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
Quite aside from the plain text of RAW, cited by three separate posters, let's just apply some common sense here, shall we? If you don't own one, trot down to your nearest hardware or camping store and put a hatchet in your hand. Now take up a reasonable fighting stance. Now visualize exactly what it would take for you to reach out to deliver a meaningful Hook technique with that <4" of purchase on (a) an armed opponent at normal engagement range, who (b) is not unreasonably going to object to you doing so, and (c) may well have the minimal skills necessary to react to the overextension to which you need to commit to have a snowball's chance in hell to pull it off.
Speaking as a very rusty martial artist (who was training more to get in shape), I would be able to Hook with the types of hatchet that I am familiar with, with slightly more difficulty (so probably an additional -1 or -2 penalty, like others have suggested) than doing anything else combat-wise with it, as long as I was hooking something relatively thin, like a weapon or the edge of a shield. I wouldn't want to, it would be more dangerous than I'd like (which is not the same as not being able to do it), but I wouldn't want to have to use a hatchet to fight with anyway.

TL-DR: Most hatchets would be more difficult to use for Hooking, few would be outright impossible.
__________________
Warning, I have the Distractible and Imaginative quirks in real life.

"The more corrupt a government, the more it legislates."
-- Tacitus

Five Earths, All in a Row. Updated 12/17/2022: Apocrypha: Bridges out of Time, Part I has been posted.
Prince Charon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2023, 10:42 AM   #17
Donny Brook
 
Donny Brook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Snoopy's basement
Default Re: Can you hook with a hatchet RAW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
... visualize exactly what it would take for you to reach out to deliver a meaningful Hook technique with that <4" of purchase on (a) an armed opponent at normal engagement range, who (b) is not unreasonably going to object to you doing so, and (c) may well have the minimal skills necessary to react to the overextension to which you need to commit to have a snowball's chance in hell to pull it off.
Obviously the opponent has to be in reach of the weapon and will be defending. Those are built in to the rules.

According to the rules, all that Hooking can do is pull an opponent off balance, disarm a weapon, or unready a shield. It's not a grapple; it's something that takes a one-second turn. It is released and over after it does one of those things. So <4" seems quite sufficient for that.
Donny Brook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2023, 02:10 PM   #18
pawsplay
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Can you hook with a hatchet RAW?

I'd be able to hook with a hatchet, it's a pretty basic technique, and doesn't require a lot of purchase. Heck, I think I could hook with a mace.
pawsplay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2023, 03:59 PM   #19
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Can you hook with a hatchet RAW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawsplay View Post
I'd be able to hook with a hatchet, it's a pretty basic technique, and doesn't require a lot of purchase. Heck, I think I could hook with a mace.
You obviously have spent points in the appropriate techniques!

Since GURPS melee weapons have to cover so many different variants of the same basic weapon it's safer to make hard rulings and allow the GM to make exceptions based on exact weapon pattern. Most axes can hook. Maces can't without special modification.

If a player points to a specific weapon they see online or in a book and says, "I want one of these" the GM can develop stats for it. Likewise, the GM can define particular types of weapons which lack the usual functionality. "Oops, the axes carried by the temple guards can't hook because they're all Epsilon Axes."
Pursuivant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2023, 03:23 AM   #20
pawsplay
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Can you hook with a hatchet RAW?

The Epsilon axe has almost enough of a projection, but lacks anything straight to hook with. By contrast, a flanged mace or a khopesh can do it.
pawsplay is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.