Animals in combat: some questions

[JoelSammallahti]

Originally Posted by Maz

I am, as noted above, especially unsure about a horse rearing?

I'd just call that an All-Out Attack (Double) and consider the fact they bring up both front legs simultaneously a special effect.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti

...
But I just don't see the idea that quadrupeds' front leg attacks count as punches working. In Gurps, if it's not a fine manipulator, it's a leg, and legs don't punch, they kick.

True, but making them kicks doesn't just penalize the attack roll, but also increase the damage, and hence effective strength of forelimbs. While I believe the difference in strength between front and back legs isn't as extreme as in bipeds, it is there.
Vertical jumps seem to result in more face-plants than butt plants, to use a real life observation.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti

I'd just call that an All-Out Attack (Double) and consider the fact they bring up both front legs simultaneously a special effect.

From how awkward it looks, I'd go for some kind of wild swing kind of like the stereotypical squeamish person jumping up and down on a bug like a lunatic.

[adm]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I don't know about horses, but cattle at least have some ability to swing a hind leg to the side. Particularly mean cattle practice this (on humans or anything else they dislike) and can get better reach and accuracy.

I suspect horses can't. Not sure about pigs, but I'm also a little dubious there.

Camels can and do kick to the side with a hind leg - not forelegs. They have great rotation on the hind limb and long knobbly legs to kick with.

None of the hoofed animals that I'm aware of (cloven or not) have good sideways mobility with the forelimbs - that said if there's one that does, I bet it's a kind of goat or other climber.

Thinking about it some more, outside of the primates, I think it's various marsupials that come the close to humans in details of use of the forelimbs for striking (red kangaroo "boxing" comes to mind) but they still don't have the full range of motion. And they're sort of cheat-y by being more upright than placental mammals for reasons that escape me.

If you can touch the horse, other than it's stretched out nose, he can kick you with a back leg. As someone whose Mother always had horses, I can tell you that they can do a single kick with either back leg, a back kick with both rear legs, or a strike with both front legs. They bite too. I was at a horse show in the 1970's where a horse picked up a ~7 year old by his head.

All of that said, most horses go out of their way to avoid hurting things, particularly children. One of my Mother's friends was riding side saddle in a parade, when her stallion would not stand still while waiting to start. It turns out there was a small boy standing under him, poking him in the balls, and asking his Dad what these were. The stallion did his best to ignore him until the Dad dragged him away.

[GodBeastX]

I don't think cats should be quadruped. I think it should just have Horizonal and No Fine Manipulators.

If you can walk on a limb but can-
not use it to manipulate objects, it is a
leg in GURPS (for legs that double as
arms, see Extra Arms, p. 53). A normal
leg can kick for thrust/crushing dam-
age at your usual reach (1 yard for a
human). The human norm is two legs,
which costs 0 points. It costs points to
have more than two legs:

Cats can manipulate objects, grapple with them, etc. This seems like a glaring design mess up.

[JoelSammallahti]

Okay, I should have read Martial Arts more closely before posting. As Maz kindly pointed out, Extra Legs (Four Legs) gives +2 to the roll to stay standing after a missed kick, +1 for each leg past two.

It gives more, though: +3 to pin a target with fewer hands than your legs, and most significantly, when using the legs, +2 to hit with a grapple or break free and +2 to ST to choke to strangle. So, cumulative with the normal rules for using your legs, that's +0 to grapple and +4 to ST to choke or strangle, if you use all four legs to do so. Now, my assumption is that a quadruped using only two legs to grapple would get only the modifiers for using two legs, but it would also not fall down, although it would move at half Move to drag its grappled prey, as per 2 crippled legs.

Now, that's well and good. But under No Fine Manipulatos (Martial Arts, p. 116) it says you suffer no penalty to grapple, takedown, or pin. Now, that just can't be right. No Fine Manipulators is not just for animals, it's also for people with both their arms cut off. I'm a little bit confused here.

[JoelSammallahti]

Okay, I just looked at Dungeon Fantasy 5: Allies, to see what PK has done with this issue. And... I don't get it.

In alphabetical order, the Anaconda has Vermiform and Constriction Attack, so it's neither here nor there. Moving on. The Bear has Ham-Fisted 2 instead of No Fine Manipulators - these are fantasy animals, so fine. Its claw attack is a punch, Thr-1 cr with +1 for Blunt Claws and +1 for Brawling at DX+2. Great. Makes sense.

The Boar has No Fine Manipulators as part of Quadruped, no claws of any kind, and it kicks for Thr cr, with +1 for Brawling at DX+3, at -2 to skill. So that's a four-legged animal whose limb attack is a kick. Fantastic.

The Giant Eagle and Gorilla both have hands (foot manipulators in the case of the bird), and none of the Quadruped traits I'm concerned with. Again, fine.

But then, looking at the Great Cat (Panther), its Claw attack works like a punch: it attacks with full Brawling, and does Thr-1 cut with +1 for Brawling at DX+2. Why? The Hound and the Wolverine claw at full skill and thr-1 like the Great Cat.

The Stallion kicks at -2 to skill and thr at -1 per die like the Boar, but has the Kicking technique to offset the penalty, and Hooves to negate the damage penalty for Horizontal. It works out.

Why are the Great Cat, Hound, and Wolverine treated differently from the Boar and Stallion? The only relevant difference here is the presence of Claws other than Hooves. Now, according to the Basic Set, Claws removes the damage penalty from Horizontal, but Hooves doesn't. Ok. But it says nothing about treating leg attacks as punches for damage or skill penalty.

I just don't get it! Why are their kicks treated as punches? Is there a rule in one of these books that specifies this? Or an unofficial statement by PK or Kromm or Toadkiller_Dog?

[Maz]

Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti

I just don't get it! Why are their kicks treated as punches? Is there a rule in one of these books that specifies this? Or an unofficial statement by PK or Kromm or Toadkiller_Dog?

I'm guessing because it made more sense. The rules aren't infallible, and this might be a place that could use some work.

Btw. Technically hooves fall under the Claws-advantage.

[McAllister]

JoelSammallahti, I feel your pain. I could speculate, but you don't want speculation, you want the thing to be consistent, and I can't make it so.

[JoelSammallahti]

Originally Posted by McAllister

JoelSammallahti, I feel your pain. I could speculate, but you don't want speculation, you want the thing to be consistent, and I can't make it so.

Well, it's only Mild Pain but the -2 to IQ is getting to me.