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Old 12-06-2023, 03:00 PM   #1
Tigrah2k
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Michigan
Default Spiked Pavise?

Hi all,
Been a while since I've had a question for you. I've thought about this style of shield for a long time, but thought it was just fanciful. Turns out, there's historic proof of it being used. Now, I'm curious what existing modification could fit for it?

https://www.reddit.com/r/LARP/commen...spiked_pavise/

Would this be a case of using the Rim Blade, and just changing its damage type to Impaling, and arc to front - ie, a stylistic change, as opposed to a significant system change? Or would there be a better solution?
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Old 12-06-2023, 03:18 PM   #2
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Spiked Pavise?

I think the name "pavise" is used in Low Tech but that link isn't to the sort of thing LT would be talking about. What you linked to is just a regular Shield, maybe Medium, maybe Small.

Somebody somewhere probably used shields like it (and I mean historically not in LARPing) and if they put a spike on it (probably on that forearm-sized boss) it would use the regular spiked shield rules.

<shrug>Sorry. Just because something looks cool doesn't mean it gets special rules in Gurps.

.......unless of course you're looking for an Ethnic Kewl bonus. :) Even that is going to be a generic +1 or so because it looks cool.
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Old 12-06-2023, 03:19 PM   #3
Tigrah2k
 
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Default Re: Spiked Pavise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I think the name "pavise" is used in Low Tech but that link isn't to the sort of thing LT would be talking about. What you linked to is just a regular Shield, maybe Medium, maybe Small.

Somebody somewhere probably used shields like it (and I mean historically not in LARPing) and if they put a spike on it (probably on that forearm-sized boss) it would use the regular spiked shield rules.

<shrug>Sorry. Just because something looks cool doesn't mean it gets special rules in Gurps.

.......unless of course you're looking for an Ethnic Kewl bonus. :) Even that is going to be a generic +1 or so because it looks cool.
My research indicated that the Pavise had a spike/ blade right on the end of it. Not the boss. I'm sure there were some that had both a spiked boss, and a spiked/ bladed edge. It's the edge that I'm interested in. lol
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Old 12-06-2023, 03:25 PM   #4
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Spiked Pavise?

Here's an old thread discussing exactly this kind of shield. I can't recall if they were discussed in Shields Up (a DFRPG supplement from Gaming Ballistics), but I'll try to remember to check that when I get home.
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Old 12-06-2023, 03:28 PM   #5
Tigrah2k
 
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Default Re: Spiked Pavise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Here's an old thread discussing exactly this kind of shield. I can't recall if they were discussed in Shields Up (a DFRPG supplement from Gaming Ballistics), but I'll try to remember to check that when I get home.
Thanks! =)
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Old 12-06-2023, 03:53 PM   #6
Pursuivant
 
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Default Re: Spiked Pavise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigrah2k View Post
Would this be a case of using the Rim Blade, and just changing its damage type to Impaling, and arc to front - ie, a stylistic change, as opposed to a significant system change?
Your idea of using a modified rim blade for this sort of spike-ended shield makes sense, although in many cases the sharp end might just do cutting damage, such as a tip slash with a spear.

A standard pavise would probably be too large to be an effective offensive weapon, however, since there's no way to get any sort of thrusting power without sticking out your arm and charging or otherwise using your entire body.

My guess is that the big sharp-ended pavises occasionally seen in historical manuscripts were just an attempt to improve basic pavise design. If you've got a spike on the bottom edge of the pavise you don't have to carry a post and hammer if you want to stick the pavise, especially if it's got a bit of a curve to it. Note that the pointed end of many of those pavise designs closely resemble a shovel, rather than a narrower spike designed to stick someone.

There are some European bladed and spiked shields, which appear to have been used as judicial dueling weapons, as well as long, narrow African dueling shields which are just wide enough to cover the wielder's arm and which had a sharp point on the end. Those might have been practical melee weapons. I'd treat them as Combination Weapons which combine a Buckler or Small Shield with a Katar or similar weapon.
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Old 12-09-2023, 01:16 PM   #7
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Default Re: Spiked Pavise?

If someone asked me about a "spiked pavise" with no other context, I'd assume it had a spike on the bottom that was stuck in the ground.
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Old 12-10-2023, 09:34 PM   #8
pawsplay
 
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Default Re: Spiked Pavise?

Talhoffer shows this kind of shield. It was generally spiked into the ground, but there are also pictures of it being used to stab downward, and to bash, and there are pages that show two combatants using them in a duel, with gruesome results. The technique is essentially a variation of spear and staff. This type of shield has a spine running down the back that reinforces it, unlike a typical shield which is banded or made of slats and semi-flexible, or surrounding a boss (as with the buckler). So in this way it is used to concentrate a stab.

https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:MS_...A.558_046r.jpg
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Old 12-10-2023, 10:17 PM   #9
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Default Re: Spiked Pavise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawsplay View Post
Talhoffer shows this kind of shield. It was generally spiked into the ground, but there are also pictures of it being used to stab downward, and to bash, and there are pages that show two combatants using them in a duel, with gruesome results. The technique is essentially a variation of spear and staff. This type of shield has a spine running down the back that reinforces it, unlike a typical shield which is banded or made of slats and semi-flexible, or surrounding a boss (as with the buckler). So in this way it is used to concentrate a stab.

https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:MS_...A.558_046r.jpg
Some of these types of duels I believe we're specifically arranged as novel fights, either to ensure the fighters were equally [un]prepared (weird weapons neither had ever even considered training with) or just to make it interesting for the witnesses/spectators.
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Old 12-11-2023, 12:08 AM   #10
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: Spiked Pavise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
Some of these types of duels I believe we're specifically arranged as novel fights, either to ensure the fighters were equally [un]prepared (weird weapons neither had ever even considered training with) or just to make it interesting for the witnesses/spectators.
Here is an academic article with what is known about Talhoffer's special weapons and fifteenth-century duels in the Holy Roman Empire https://bop.unibe.ch/apd/article/view/6870
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