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Old 02-03-2020, 03:49 PM   #1
maximara
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Default Error in Banestorm Lycanthropy

Adding the Banestorm wereforms point totals to the GURPSwiki I quickly realized the totals given for humans are wrong.

They are all done via Shapeshifting's Alternate Form which expressly states "If you have a single Alternate Form, it costs 15 points for a racial template worth no more than your native racial template. A more powerful form costs 15 points plus 90% of
the difference in cost between your native template and that of your Alternate Form
" (Basic Set pg 84)

The Human racial template is [0] so forms with negative point totals (Were-eagle, Were-snake, and Werewolf) should be 15 points each and yet they are given the far lower point total of 3.

Werebear, Wereboar, and Weretiger simply give their racial costs (30, 21, 33 respectively) as Alternate Form's cost. That is wrong. Werebear should be 42 (0.9*30+15) points, Wereboar 34 (0.9*21+15) points, Weretiger 45 (0.9*33+15) points.

What I can't figure out is how did they FUBAR things that badly.
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Last edited by maximara; 02-03-2020 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 02-03-2020, 04:49 PM   #2
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Default Re: Error in Banestorm Lycanthropy

I just did the math on werebear and its right.
AF only costs 3 points as it has more than 80% limitations. So its 3 + (racial cost * 0.9)
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Old 02-03-2020, 05:46 PM   #3
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Default Re: Error in Banestorm Lycanthropy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
I just did the math on werebear and its right.
AF only costs 3 points as it has more than 80% limitations. So its 3 + (racial cost * 0.9)
Missed the (limitations Trigger, the full moon, -40%; Uncontrollable, Potentially harmful, -30%; and Minimum duration, One night, -10%) part of Alternate Form. Oops.
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Last edited by maximara; 02-08-2020 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:56 AM   #4
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Default Re: Error in Banestorm Lycanthropy

Doing a step through for creating were-creatures on the GURPSwiki I ran into another problem with the point totals for Banestorm wereforms: the racial costs themselves appear to be wrong.

Take the werebear for example. It expressly states "Turns into a black bear, as on p. B456." Using Human as a baseline and ignoring the changes to IQ and Will you get this (The last [number] is the total of each section):

Attributes: ST+4 [40]; DX+1 [20]; HT+3 [30] - [90]
Secondary Characteristics: Move+1 [5] - [5] (Move is given as 7 but (11+13)/4 is only 6)
Advantages: Blunt Claws [3]; DR 2 [10]; Sharp Teeth [1]; Temperature Tolerance 2 [2] - [16]
Disadvantages: No Fine Manipulators [-30]; Semi-Upright [-5]; Wild Animal [-30] - [-65] (the 0 point fixed IQ is ignored)
Skills: Brawling (DX/E)-13 [4] - [4] (this is figured from the template's DX)

This totals 50 (90+5+16-65+4) points not the 30 points we are given. Is this another case of me missing something obvious or is the racial cost actually wrong?
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Last edited by maximara; 02-08-2020 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 02-08-2020, 10:30 AM   #5
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Default Re: Error in Banestorm Lycanthropy

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Doing a step through for creating were-creatures on the GURPSwiki I ran into another problem with the point totals for Banestorm wereforms: the racial costs themselves appear to be wrong.

Take the werebear for example. It expressly states "Turns into a black bear, as on p. B456." Using Human as a baseline and ignoring the changes to IQ and Will you get this (The last [number] is the total of each section):

Attributes: ST+4 [40]; DX+1 [20]; HT+3 [30] - [90]
Secondary Characteristics: Move+1 [5] - [5] (Move is given as 7 but (11+13)/4 is only 6)
Advantages: Blunt Claws [3]; DR 2 [10]; Sharp Teeth [1]; Temperature Tolerance 2 [2] - [16]
Disadvantages: No Fine Manipulators [-30]; Semi-Upright [-5]; Wild Animal [-30] - [-65] (the 0 point fixed IQ is ignored)
Skills: Brawling (DX/E)-13 [4] - [4] (this is figured from the template's DX)

This totals 50 (90+5+16-65+4) points not the 30 points we are given. Is this another case of me missing something obvious or is the racial cost actually wrong?
No fine manipulator grant a 40% discount on ST and DX (b p15), that's 24 pts less, total [26].
per basic p 456, it should also have survival(native habitat) at per, that's 2 pts more, but probably not counted.

IQ, will and per should be counted, looking at the were eagle just below, but ...
IQ -6 is -120 points
Will +8 is +40 points
Per +6 is +30 points

66-120+5+70+16-65+4 = -24

Either way, it doesn't add up

Last edited by Celjabba; 02-08-2020 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:55 PM   #6
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Default Re: Error in Banestorm Lycanthropy

Tho costs were probably based on an earlier printing like my 1st edition, which did not include NFM in the template. Leaving that out should make the black bear cost right at 30. WITH NFM, you've got a disadvantageous form that you'd probably want to tweak to make it better for were- characters.
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Old 02-08-2020, 07:40 PM   #7
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Default Re: Error in Banestorm Lycanthropy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
No fine manipulator grant a 40% discount on ST and DX (b p15), that's 24 pts less, total [26].
per basic p 456, it should also have survival(native habitat) at per, that's 2 pts more, but probably not counted.

IQ, will and per should be counted, looking at the were eagle just below
Actually this depends on the form of were creature; some types you retain your race's IQ (ala WoW's Worgan) while with others you take on the IQ of the animal you turn into.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
, but ...
IQ -6 is -120 points
Will +8 is +40 points
Per +6 is +30 points

66-120+5+70+16-65+4 = -24
I prefer doing the specs over as it is easier for someone to spot where you messed up.

Attributes: ST+4 (No fine manipulator -40%) [24]; IQ-6 [-120]; DX+1 (No fine manipulator -40%) [12]; HT+3 [30]: [-54]
Secondary Characteristics: Move+1 [5]; Will+8 [40]; Per+6 [30]: [75]
Advantages: Blunt Claws [3]; DR 2 [10]; Sharp Teeth [1]; Temperature Tolerance 2 [2] [16]
Disadvantages: No Fine Manipulators [-30]; Semi-Upright [-5]; Wild Animal [-30] [-65]:
Skills Brawling: (DX/E)-13 [4]: [4]

-54+75+16-65+4=-24 so everything checks out.

I should mention that I stepped through Fantasy's wolf form and I am not sure where the [48] for the alternate form in the Human write up is coming from given we have -50% limitations. Doing it as (15+26*.9)*.5 you get 19.2 or 20 points and 15+(26*.9)*.5 get 26.7 or 27 points. Even if you drop the -50% limitations you only get 41 (15+26) points. Something is just not right there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
Either way, it doesn't add up
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
Tho costs were probably based on an earlier printing like my 1st edition, which did not include NFM in the template. Leaving that out should make the black bear cost right at 30. WITH NFM, you've got a disadvantageous form that you'd probably want to tweak to make it better for were- characters.
Yes, it is a mess either way because Were-Eagle expressly uses the No fine manipulator limitation on ST and DX and the No Fine Manipulators disadvantage. So it seems that Banestorm was looking at Basic Set 2nd printing when drawing up its were creatures.
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Last edited by maximara; 02-08-2020 at 10:05 PM.
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