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Old 05-19-2023, 11:57 PM   #11
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
I didn't like how the game forced characters into two distinct phases of progression... build your stats until they get too expensive then switch to talents. I wanted the choice between stats and talents to stay (mostly) even at every stage of play. It's OK if both choices get more expensive as PCs advance - that's to be expected - the goal is simply to keep one option from significantly outpacing the other.

The other factor to consider, of course, is the rate at which XP is earned.
Those are also my pet peeves with the Legacy way of doing these things. I really want more Talents to be more accessible to more characters as well, but not by this gamey approach of turning Talents into a tax shelter for XP.

My preferred way is to continue raising Talent Points (TP) with increases in IQ, leaving XP for thier original purpose of increasing attributes only.

Over the years I've concocted many formulas for allocating TP without any of those complications, with my favorite (albeit un-play-tested) being this latest one:

Talent Points = (IQ - 3) x 2

A slightly different formula applies to non-human species, but for humans an IQ 8 figure has 10 TP, at IQ 9 it's 12 TP, at IQ 10 it has 14 TP, etc. Yes, at IQ 20 a figure would have 34 TP (but more on how this would be mitigated is below). Thus every time IQ is raised 1 point, TP increases 2 points. At any stage in a figure's life, Talent Points are determined by IQ. As attributes go up, the next IQ increase costs progressively more XP, but unlike Classic TFT figures get twice as many TP for these IQ increases.

To slow what would otherwise become a runaway train, I'll raise the cost and IQ level for most of the more advanced talents. Some 3 point talents will now cost 4 (or more), and a few 2 point talents will now cost 3. We already have a few advanced talents a little-too-easily in reach of starting characters, so spreading out the range of talent costs will permit more adjustments in that regard.

And lastly, wizards. As I frequently mention, I've always used a Wizardry talent with a cost of 5. That eats up half or more of these TP for wizards until their IQs start exceeding 10 (and I've never charged wizards double cost for any other talents). We had an Advanced Wizardry talent as well in my 80's group. I've expanded that now to FIVE levels of the Wizardry talent, the first costing 5 TP and the remaining steps each costing 3 TP; yes, each one makes a wizard a better wizard. But this forces any wizard who keeps progressing as a wizard to keep at least 50% of their Talent Points tied up in Wizardry at each IQ level, preserving the original game balance. Yes, a young wizard might decide to depart the path of magical education and pursue expertise with the sword instead, but then they'll never be as powerful a wizard as the one who stuck to magic.
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Old 05-20-2023, 08:25 PM   #12
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
I really want more Talents to be more accessible to more characters as well, but not by this gamey approach of turning Talents into a tax shelter for XP.
Not sure I understand what you mean by this. Which approach are you referring to and how does it equate to a 'tax shelter'?

Just want to make sure I clearly understand the objection.
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Old 05-21-2023, 02:34 AM   #13
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

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Not sure I understand what you mean by this. Which approach are you referring to and how does it equate to a 'tax shelter'?

Just want to make sure I clearly understand the objection.
Perhaps that's not the right metaphor. Just thinking of putting XP into talents and spells as a way of "hiding" your total improvements from the XP-to-Attribute conversion table. If the ever-increasing costs of advancement are viewed like a tax on your total earned XP, you can (under Legacy rules) dodge that tax by putting your XP on talents and spells.

What I meant was to entirely agree with where you said "I wanted the choice between stats and talents to stay (mostly) even at every stage of play. It's OK if both choices get more expensive as PCs advance - that's to be expected - the goal is simply to keep one option from significantly outpacing the other."

I too prefer the costs of everything, not just higher attributes, to increase as you go, but not with the total number of talent going up as painfully slowly as they had in Classic ITL, or the acquisition of talents deferred to a later stage purely because it's more economical in terms of XP costs.
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Old 05-21-2023, 08:18 AM   #14
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
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Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

Interesting.

I had no idea the discussion would move toward this latest point made.

I started simply finding a way to make talents/spells easier to obtain earlier in character development. It progressed into balancing out XP to Attribute cost with XP to Talent/Spell cost at all stages of character development. I don't know if that can be achieved within the current framework but it's worth discussing.

I hate to say it but, at this time, I still seem to gravitate toward using the Classic TFT XP to Attribute cost in conjunction with the Legacy TFT allowance of spending XP on Talents/Spells. The only reason that I say this is because I have analyzed several XP to Attribute cost systems and that is what I ended up favoring as a result. However, this discussion adds a different dimension to that analysis that was not fully considered. That is balancing XP to Attribute cost and XP to Talent/Spell cost at all/most stages of character development.
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Old 05-21-2023, 10:20 AM   #15
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Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
What I meant was to entirely agree with where you said "I wanted the choice between stats and talents to stay (mostly) even at every stage of play. It's OK if both choices get more expensive as PCs advance - that's to be expected - the goal is simply to keep one option from significantly outpacing the other."
One way to achieve this is to have a radically different XP system and talent/spell system. I've cribbed the some of what follows from elsewhere:

All beginning characters get 10 talents or spells, and all talents cost 1. Increasing an attribute or learning a talent or spell costs XP = the sum of the character's attributes and number of talents and spells.

Players should expect many fewer XP per session than either Classic or LE recommendations.
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Old 05-21-2023, 10:58 AM   #16
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Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

A: IQ should contribute to memory points at start and on advancement.

A1: Increasing IQ adds memory points, but you can spend flat 500 XPs per memory point if you like.

B: IQ shouldn't have anything to do with memory points at start or on advancement.

C: The current system.

Which do you choose?
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Old 05-21-2023, 03:53 PM   #17
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Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
A: IQ should contribute to memory points at start and on advancement.

A1: Increasing IQ adds memory points, but you can spend flat 500 XPs per memory point if you like.

B: IQ shouldn't have anything to do with memory points at start or on advancement.

C: The current system.

Which do you choose?
C: The Current System.

Stop being a mini-maxer that always buys attributes up to 36 points before getting talents.

Envision what you want the character to be and if the first XP you spend gives the character LITERACY instead of going up 1 point in ST, so be it.

This doesn't have to be a race for power between the PCs.
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Old 05-21-2023, 07:58 PM   #18
Axly Suregrip
 
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Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
A: IQ should contribute to memory points at start and on advancement.

A1: Increasing IQ adds memory points, but you can spend flat 500 XPs per memory point if you like.

B: IQ shouldn't have anything to do with memory points at start or on advancement.

C: The current system.

Which do you choose?
We use "A"
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Old 05-21-2023, 08:34 PM   #19
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
A: IQ should contribute to memory points at start and on advancement.

A1: Increasing IQ adds memory points, but you can spend flat 500 XPs per memory point if you like.

B: IQ shouldn't have anything to do with memory points at start or on advancement.

C: The current system.

Which do you choose?
D. (actually let's call it E. since my system's working title is TFTe)
IQ defines the character’s starting pool for talents and/or spells. Post-creation, characters must use earned XP to purchase those abilities, but the total number of talents/spells known may not exceed the character’s IQ score.*

*In my system, this is adjusted by the character’s tier. For example, a Novice hero PC with 10 IQ may have up to 10 total talents (the 'cost' difference used at character creation does not apply), but once they achieve the Veteran tier that capacity increases to 20... assuming their IQ did not increase.
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 05-22-2023 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 05-21-2023, 08:48 PM   #20
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

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Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN View Post
I hate to say it but, at this time, I still seem to gravitate toward using the Classic TFT XP to Attribute cost in conjunction with the Legacy TFT allowance of spending XP on Talents/Spells. The only reason that I say this is because I have analyzed several XP to Attribute cost systems and that is what I ended up favoring as a result. However, this discussion adds a different dimension to that analysis that was not fully considered. That is balancing XP to Attribute cost and XP to Talent/Spell cost at all/most stages of character development.
TBH, restoring the 'classic' progression scheme is a great solution to the LE problem. It is an elegant, well-balanced and time-tested design. If you go that route, however, I would not recommend attempting to accommodate the LE feature of purchasing talents/spells directly with XP. Stick to the original IQ-increase dependency. It's much cleaner.
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