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Old 03-20-2023, 02:56 PM   #31
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Reality testing firearm rules

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
All-out Attack +4 and Telegraphed blow +4 for +8 to hit covers that.
No, for an average DX 10 person it gives a 50% chance. Letting Evaluate stack with Telegraphic Attack would work in this case, as that would result in around an 84% chance of hitting, but then I think the average person wouldn't need 3 seconds to line up their attack. I could be mistaken, however.

EDIT: Arguably, hitting that pumpkin with a stick (using Broadsword, which similarly has a DX-5 default) would be a better example, as actually hitting a pumpkin with the head of an axe is a bit harder than just hitting it with a balanced stick. But GURPS doesn't give a bonus to strike with a weapon that doesn't care as much about exactly where on the weapon you strike the target with (for a stick/baseball bat/etc, there's a sweet spot that delivers a stronger impact, but hitting elsewhere doesn't have quite as dramatic of a difference in effect as, say, hitting a piece of wood with the blade of an axe vs hitting with the haft).
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Old 03-20-2023, 03:49 PM   #32
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Default Re: Reality testing firearm rules

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Comprehensibility. You can explain range shooting precisely even to non-shooters but real combat is this confused and jumbled up thing that many people will ahve no context to understand and other people won't be sure that your assumptions are the same as their assumptions.
Exactly.



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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
"Melee weapon skills assume a life or death fight, but ranged weapon skills assume an easy day of shooting on a 21st century brightly lit indoor range with electronic targets" seems more likely to be confusing than comprehensible.
I said "skilled shooter" and not "skilled character" because we're talking about firearms and range rules in the thread.

Extrapolate out to all skill uses... I'd rather the setting presumptions were "calm usage equals no penalties and here's a pile of penalties" rather than "stressed usage and here's penalties for various problems and there are scattered bonuses across a bunch of supplements and 'common wisdom of the forums' to represent casual usage".

Actually, I'd have been fine with "All skills are presumed to be used under combat or highly stressed/field conditions and here are a list of bonuses for non-stressed, non-combat, non-field usage" in one place. (Yes, I know there are scattered rules for having better equipment and thus not being "in the field", but they are also scattered.)

So mostly my complaint boils down to "we need a centralized list of bonuses and penalties", but I also think that starting from "easiest use case" as a baseline is best.

It would also help* to build those "I've never fought before and am suffering from combat stress but have tons of range time" characters as different from "combat vet with tonnes of range time. Because while Combat Reflexes does make a difference, in ranged combat that difference is small once the first "turn" is past, and does not accurately reflect the effect of stress on a shooter.


* Because we'd actually have penalties we could mitigate via Advantages or Techniques. What do we have now to differentiate them?
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Old 03-20-2023, 05:15 PM   #33
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Default Re: Reality testing firearm rules

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
Actually, I'd have been fine with "All skills are presumed to be used under combat or highly stressed/field conditions and here are a list of bonuses for non-stressed, non-combat, non-field usage" in one place. (Yes, I know there are scattered rules for having better equipment and thus not being "in the field", but they are also scattered.)
Better equipment does not mean 'not in the field'. Also, the rules for equipment modifiers are in the box on B345...
Quote:
So mostly my complaint boils down to "we need a centralized list of bonuses and penalties", but I also think that starting from "easiest use case" as a baseline is best.
...right above the text describing these in the general case.

All else is extra detail, and is thus something that if centralised would be less convenient than putting it in the section where that case is being discussed.

Quote:
It would also help* to build those "I've never fought before and am suffering from combat stress but have tons of range time" characters as different from "combat vet with tonnes of range time. Because while Combat Reflexes does make a difference, in ranged combat that difference is small once the first "turn" is past, and does not accurately reflect the effect of stress on a shooter.
The Combat Art or Sport (B184) are for exactly this.

Add in relevant advantages (e.g. Combat Reflexes) and disadvantages (e.g. Combat Paralysis and various levels of Pacifism) if necessary.
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Old 03-20-2023, 05:32 PM   #34
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Default Re: Reality testing firearm rules

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
Actually, I'd have been fine with "All skills are presumed to be used under combat or highly stressed/field conditions and here are a list of bonuses for non-stressed, non-combat, non-field usage" in one place.
That's exactly what the Basic Set does. Pages 345-346 (Campaigns), "Task Difficulty." All the other things from the forums and other supplements are extrapolated from that.
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Old 03-20-2023, 05:33 PM   #35
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Default Re: Reality testing firearm rules

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
Exactly.
Actually, I'd have been fine with "All skills are presumed to be used under combat or highly stressed/field conditions and here are a list of bonuses for non-stressed, non-combat, non-field usage" in one place.
You mean like the Basic Set, p.345-346?

Yeah, sure, specific examples are given later books. The basics are covered in the Basic Set.
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Old 03-20-2023, 10:37 PM   #36
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Default Re: Reality testing firearm rules

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You mean like the Basic Set, p.345-346?

Yeah, sure, specific examples are given later books. The basics are covered in the Basic Set.
I mean, they are covered pretty badly. It tells you there's a scale, but it's pretty much useless for calibrating modifiers to tasks in any general sense.
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Old 03-20-2023, 11:12 PM   #37
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Default Re: Reality testing firearm rules

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
That seems like a poor way to design an RPG, honestly. Combat conditions are the situation where the rules are going to be used in a campaign - most aren't going to be focused on how well you do when out plinking, so defaulting to the former rather than the latter makes the most sense.
Also, the brown pants moments are exactly when I A) want to be specific about the numbers, and B) don't want to interrupt the flow of the game to go hunting down modifiers. Usually, a day on the range is either a competition (you can just roll that as a series of skill contests) or showing off (just roll skill a few times, cumulative margin of success indicates how much better or worse you did than a novice shooter would be expected to do). And for this purpose, "just showing off" includes both "impressing the fellas at the gun club" and "demonstrating skill to the satisfaction of the range boss so I can keep my job."
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Old 03-21-2023, 12:24 PM   #38
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Default Re: Reality testing firearm rules

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
No, for an average DX 10 person it gives a 50% chance. Letting Evaluate stack with Telegraphic Attack would work in this case, as that would result in around an 84% chance of hitting, but then I think the average person wouldn't need 3 seconds to line up their attack. I could be mistaken, however.
Exactly, so... in a dojo when performing wooden dummy katas the average joe should be getting a pile of bonuses to their skill. And I don't mean Telegraphic as they're being trained (in some dojos) to actually fight and not telegraph the attacks, they aren't taking 4 seconds per strike to evaluate and strike, etc...



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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Better equipment does not mean 'not in the field'. Also, the rules for equipment modifiers are in the box on B345...
Check the example for Surgical equipment modifiers... that's usually my go to for modifiers as having an actual surgical theater can be hefty for modern or better campaigns (it's a stealthy "+7" for TL 8, +4 for equipment, and a missing -3 for being able to sterilize everything... a penalty listed under the Surgery skill*).


* I'm actually not complaining that that penalty is listed under the skill it affects... but a "Here's some Task Modifiers, go at it" with other modifiers scatterd everywhere else is not a help. Especially with an absolute lack of direction on whether a day at the range counts as "super easy, barely and inconvenience" or "oh yeah, it's a competition or challenge so it needs all the penalties, no bonuses".

There is a lot of leeway in there, and very scattered and implied suggestions for bonuses and penalties.



If it were simple and easy to interpret, we wouldn't have this thread.



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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
Also, the brown pants moments are exactly when I A) want to be specific about the numbers, and B) don't want to interrupt the flow of the game to go hunting down modifiers.
I think I just need to start combing through the books and compile a master list. I usually just wing the numbers (at least the ones I don't have listed in my campaign bible), but I agree, I prefer to be precise so the Players can build precisely (for the ones that care, the that don't... well don't care).
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Old 03-22-2023, 01:57 AM   #39
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Default Re: Reality testing firearm rules

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
Exactly, so... in a dojo when performing wooden dummy katas the average joe should be getting a pile of bonuses to their skill. And I don't mean Telegraphic as they're being trained (in some dojos) to actually fight and not telegraph the attacks, they aren't taking 4 seconds per strike to evaluate and strike.
Generically a task difficulty modifier for an Easy or Trivial task. If you want to be more specific, everything from the plinking box that isn't related to range shooting can apply to most training environments.
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Old 03-22-2023, 09:29 AM   #40
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Default Re: Reality testing firearm rules

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Generically a task difficulty modifier for an Easy or Trivial task. If you want to be more specific, everything from the plinking box that isn't related to range shooting can apply to most training environments.
Notably that's just the +3 for lacking stressors, unless you want to assert that there's a combat bonus for melee in high-visibility environments...
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