Black Ops: exactly, HOW many recruits die in training?

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Is there no option of failing to pass but surviving?

Yes. Some recruits who are physically damaged in ways that can't be fixed are transferred to Academy support roles, or other Company supporting positions. They never become full black ops but they support them behind the scenes.

Basically, the "weeding out" drills reliably demonstrate a lot of recruits just don't have what it takes, and they flunk out, staying in normal military service. Relatively-normal, anyway - presumably they have been made aware of secrets that are beyond Top Secret. Or maybe those who can't cut it as field agents go into the support wing of the organization, serving as the haft rather than tip of the spear.

Those who are sufficiently injured, yes. But as for 'normal military service', remember that the Company is not part of the government. They aren't a branch of the military, and simply knowing they exist means you know too much to be allowed to leave.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Killing 1/3 of highly elite candidates seems excessive, even for MIB. It's bad for morale and a massive waste of potential talent.

While training is lethal enough that every training cycles sees recruit deaths (which would be a huge scandal for any other military or paramilitary formation),

Depends on what you mean. Real world militaries do have recruits die in training at times (though of course nothing close to 30%). Sometimes it's because of a medical condition that slips past the entrance exams (military doctors esp. look for signs of heart flaws that could manifest in the physical training). Sometimes recruits in real militaries die in live fire training exercises or the like, though again, of course, nothing remotely close to 30%. It's an occasional thing in responsible military organizations.

it's likely that most "eliminated" recruits are permanently injured or voluntarily quit.

Nope. You can't voluntarily quit. If you try, they'll kill you. And they tell you that at the start (though even then it's already past the point of no return).

The canon does say that some of those untreatably injured in training do become support staff at the Academy (teachers, maintenance, etc.). Many of the deaths come about in various 'live fire training' exercises or the equivalent.

The permanently injured and physically or psychologically deficient are evaluated for their suitability as support personnel or "auxiliaries." Those that make the cut are retrained to support The Company's mission in other ways. Those who represent a potential risk to themselves or others are given suitable "psychological modifications" to render them harmless, which can range from partial amnesia to catatonia.

No, the ones who can't function well enough to even be support staff are killed. Simple as that.

The Company is not a 'realistic' organization in most senses, but it is realistic in one respect: it's every bit as coldly ruthless as an organization determined to remain so secret would have to be. If the only way to keep the secret is kill people, including trainees and innocent bystanders, that's exactly what they do.

They do have a memory-wiping drug that they sometimes use on witnesses, and I suppose they might occasionally dose a trainee with it and return him or her to civilian life...but if they did, they would keep it a secret from the other cadets. Why? Because otherwise they'd have people who had had second thoughts seeing that as a viable Way Out. Even if they do it, that would only work at the very beginning, because the drug only wipes the most recent memories. So that option would only be open in the first week or two.

They make no secret of the 30% kill rate to the recruits, BTW. They actually use it as a tool to inculcate the ruthlessness and sense of elite superiority they want in their ops, as well as a healthy fear of ARGUS and the high bosses.

Alternately, the bulk of recruit deaths occur in the field during advanced training, when recruits are seconded to serving MIB units. Because their deaths aren't publicized and are "invisible" to their fellow recruits, the high level of attrition isn't so shockingly obvious.

Most of the deaths are in the first year of training.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Yes. Some recruits who are physically damaged in ways that can't be fixed are transferred to Academy support roles, or other Company supporting positions. They never become full black ops but they support them behind the scenes.

It seems odd that the only way to wind up in a support role is to become too physically injured to serve on the frontlines, particularly given the extreme point value of the characters. This honestly implies that all of the recruits have what it takes, it's just that the training is so ridiculously harsh that 30% of them die. Which is utterly ridiculous, of course - just throwing away such valuable potential operators is stupid, and The Company would be better served adopting sane training methods.

One of the harshest training pipelines in the modern military is Air Force Pararescue (PJ), which has the well-earned nickname of "Superman School." It has an attrition rate of somewhere around 80% (that is, out of every five people who enter the pipeline, only one makes it to graduation). But the vast, vast majority of those who fail to make it through do so not by death, or even injury, but simply flunk out.

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Those who are sufficiently injured, yes. But as for 'normal military service', remember that the Company is not part of the government. They aren't a branch of the military, and simply knowing they exist means you know too much to be allowed to leave.

Even if they aren't part of the military, I'd expect them to have a lot of military connections - that's likely where they get their best recruits from! Having associates who can't quite make the cut remain as "men on the inside" in various militaries - to make The Company aware of supernormal happenings, point new potential recruits their way, etc - makes a great deal of sense.

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Real world militaries do have recruits die in training at times (though of course nothing close to 30%). Sometimes it's because of a medical condition that slips past the entrance exams (military doctors esp. look for signs of heart flaws that could manifest in the physical training). Sometimes recruits in real militaries die in live fire training exercises or the like, though again, of course, nothing remotely close to 30%. It's an occasional thing in responsible military organizations.

I know when my brother was in basic training for the USMC, there were one or two recruits (not in my brother's training platoon or whatever they're called, but training at the same camp) who attempted to commit suicide; I forget if either was successful, but there were no accidental deaths in that group. I'd imagine that's probably one of the big killers during training, honestly - people who feel they don't have what it takes to make it through, but for one reason or another don't recognize simply quitting to be an option (to say nothing of other psychological factors that may have slipped through screening).

I suppose an organization where dropping out isn't an option may see markedly higher rates of death during training, probably with a lot of those deaths being by suicide, but it seems foolish to not give people the option of dropping out - slave-soldiers aren't known for their loyalty. If knowing the big secret is something that means you cannot return to the life you had before, giving people a lesser option - such as working in support and logistics (which needs markedly more people than the combat arms anyway; a common analogy is that the combat arms are the striking head of the spear, while the support and logistics arms are the haft) - is a markedly better option.

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

They make no secret of the 30% kill rate to the recruits, BTW. They actually use it as a tool to inculcate the ruthlessness and sense of elite superiority they want in their ops, as well as a healthy fear of ARGUS and the high bosses.

Yeah, that strikes me as a recipe for disaster. You're going to have a lot of bitter - but extremely well-trained - soldiers on your hands, which means you'll either have to deal with some serious mutiny attempts or you'll need to maintain a culture of fear where everybody reports on everybody else, so that nobody has anyone they can trust to organize a mutiny. Either option is going to make The Company a nonfunctioning wreck.


Of course, if you're fine hitting Willing Suspension of Disbelief hard and just saying everything works as-advertised, that can work too.

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by Varyon

It seems odd that the only way to wind up in a support role is to become too physically injured to serve on the frontlines, particularly given the extreme point value of the characters.

Per the book, exactly that happens so often that they have more "retired" ops than they know what to do with. So they end up in support, or working in a library somewhere...

One of the harshest training pipelines in the modern military is Air Force Pararescue (PJ), which has the well-earned nickname of "Superman School." It has an attrition rate of somewhere around 80% (that is, out of every five people who enter the pipeline, only one makes it to graduation). But the vast, vast majority of those who fail to make it through do so not by death, or even injury, but simply flunk out.

Superman School (PJs), Hell Week (Seals), SFAS (Green Berets)...all examples of exactly what inspired the Academy's training regime. Basically, it's 5 years instead of 5 weeks (or whatever the timescale), and covers way more material, and is suitable amped up in cinematic tropes of 90s action and thriller movies.

The Black Ops book has a split personality, from 2 authors with somewhat different visions for the game. One is very over-the-top cinematic, filled with wire-fu and alien-blasting action. The other is a massively exaggerated and brutal take on weirdshit-hunting special ops, where the best way to systematically represent it was to invent whole new quick-and-dirty action mechanics (and use established ones like mook rules) to make it playable.

The Company doesn't really make sense in a realistic world view, in the same way that all of the "secret governement strike forces" and "secret paranormal investigations" of 90s comics and movies didn't (and still don't) make sense. The more seriously you take it, the darker and more sinister it gets. Which is part of the appeal.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Rolando

For me the 1/3 deaths is part of the mystic of the setting. The 2/3 that make it are not just trained physically but also mentally and emotionally to take those loses and turn them into more power.

Fair enough. At the time the supplement was published its author was really pushing for a "Truly Badxss" metatrait for MIBs which would have had exactly this effect. It got vetoed in playtesting, however, hence the huge lists of skills, etc.

Under GURPS 4E, a combination of Wildcard skills, Talents, & Action-style powers would be a decent substitute for the elements of the Truly Badxss advantage.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by kenclary

Per the book, exactly that happens so often that they have more "retired" ops than they know what to do with. So they end up in support, or working in a library somewhere...



Superman School (PJs), Hell Week (Seals), SFAS (Green Berets)...all examples of exactly what inspired the Academy's training regime. Basically, it's 5 years instead of 5 weeks (or whatever the timescale), and covers way more material, and is suitable amped up in cinematic tropes of 90s action and thriller movies.

The Black Ops book has a split personality, from 2 authors with somewhat different visions for the game. One is very over-the-top cinematic, filled with wire-fu and alien-blasting action. The other is a massively exaggerated and brutal take on weirdshit-hunting special ops, where the best way to systematically represent it was to invent whole new quick-and-dirty action mechanics (and use established ones like mook rules) to make it playable.

The Company doesn't really make sense in a realistic world view, in the same way that all of the "secret governement strike forces" and "secret paranormal investigations" of 90s comics and movies didn't (and still don't) make sense. The more seriously you take it, the darker and more sinister it gets. Which is part of the appeal.

Actually, secret government strike forces and secret paranormal groups can be portrayed in a way that is semi-realistic...but as you note, it becomes very nasty and dark if you do it in a way that could function.

Extreme secrecy requires extreme measures. A functional Secret Conspiracy, even one with arguably noble motives, would have to be very, very ruthless to function in such secrecy (and very small, too, the Company in Black Ops is way too big to be plausible). Which means you have to follow the sniper/spy rule, if a six year old child spots you where you aren't supposed to be, he or she can't be allowed to walk away, because they could tell someone. If you make exceptions for kids and little old ladies or the cute puppy that has your scent...you won't stay secret very long.

Fox Mulder should have been a rotting corpse in the first season of X-files, from that POV.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Actually, secret government strike forces and secret paranormal groups can be portrayed in a way that is semi-realistic...but as you note, it becomes very nasty and dark if you do it in a way that could function.

Extreme secrecy requires extreme measures. A functional Secret Conspiracy, even one with arguably noble motives, would have to be very, very ruthless to function in such secrecy (and very small, too, the Company in Black Ops is way too big to be plausible). Which means you have to follow the sniper/spy rule, if a six year old child spots you where you aren't supposed to be, he or she can't be allowed to walk away, because they could tell someone. If you make exceptions for kids and little old ladies or the cute puppy that has your scent...you won't stay secret very long.

Fox Mulder should have been a rotting corpse in the first season of X-files, from that POV.

Killing people in job lots wherever you go is a pretty bad way to be secret.

[Rolando]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Killing people in job lots wherever you go is a pretty bad way to be secret.

The company do it in a secret way :D

It send the spooks to stage some accident, in the case of a pesky kid it may involve a house fire that also deals with the entire family, just to be sure.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Killing people in job lots wherever you go is a pretty bad way to be secret.

But if you're doing it right, it isn't 'job lots', it's the occasional person who finds out too much and can't be otherwise silenced. If enough people have found out that it's 'job lots', the secret is already out.

[mburr0003]

"Reports of a fire in Hawkins, Indiana... the whole town was celebrating the fall festival in the local mall... among those reported dead are the entire local sheriffs force and several inquisitive kids and their dog..."

/dusts hands, jobs lots a good'un, secrets preserved.

[Ashtagon]

It seems to be implied that one possible use for those that failed to make the grade is that they get assigned to an existing unit to act as a redshirt or otherwise show the real team how the monster works. Either they die quickly, or they somehow thrive despite the initial rejection and their qualification status gets re-evaluated.