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Old 11-04-2015, 08:16 PM   #41
lwcamp
 
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Default Re: Questions about UT smoke, lasers, and plasma.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Which is only about 6d(2), in typical GURPS laser stats.
Yeah, but now you need to deal with the fact that the person now has a channel of several hundred or more atmospheres of ionized plasma in him pushing out in all directions. This exceeds the material strength of meat and gristle and bone by a large margin. You end up with a messy splat. Admittedly, the diameter of the messy splat depends on the initial diameter of the channel, so a needle-thin beam might only blow out a cm or so wound channel - but how are you going to get your plasma down a needle-thin channel anyway?

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Old 11-05-2015, 07:02 AM   #42
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Questions about UT smoke, lasers, and plasma.

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Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
Smoke that blocked vision would stop a modern laser weapon - but the GURPS model is a bad model for it. Lasers are light, and if the light going through a cloud of smoke is mostly scattered from the beam-path before it gets through
Luke
Why is tis smoke scattering light instead of absorbing it? I would expect most smoke (as produced by a smoke grenade or similar source) to be full of carbon particles.

In the end the difference between absorption, reflection and refraction is only going to be a matter of degree. Things that absorb the laser light will heat up and be destroyed first, then the reflectors because they can't reflect the light perfectly and absorb some of the energy in the process. The refractors come last but they aren't perfect either and each tiny microrefractor will eventually pick up enough energy in the process to exceed its' miniscule capacity to absorb the laser light too.

All these particles are suspended in the air too and you're exploding the air out of your way because you have to use a frequency of laser light that air absorbs well. The smoke particles wil get blown out of the way too.
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Old 11-05-2015, 07:25 AM   #43
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Questions about UT smoke, lasers, and plasma.

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Originally Posted by sethbrayman View Post
That would be the first option, a laser that can cut through smoke. That means creating a new type of laser, one not in UT. Can I blind people with this laser, kill with it, communicate with it? It raises a lot of questions.

I'm not sure I want to suggest new gear to the GM just yet, but thank you :)
Such lasers are already in UT. That note about smoke on p.114 you're relying on is under _High Energy Lasers(TL9)_. On p.117 X-ray Lasers and p.118 for Gamma Ray Lasers are noted as coming in the same models as High Energy Lasers which establishes the X-ray and Gamma types as separate from the lower TL high energy types.

Also on p.160 Prism Smoke is explicitly noted as being ineffective v. X-ray Lasers.

Your main problem may be that you're trying to create a new rule about existing equipment and you don't seem to be the GM. The GM could do it on nothing but his arbitrary authority but if you're not the GM you can't quote the rules as telling GMs to do this. If SJGames wanted smoke to stop Plasma guns it would say so in the book.

However, my main recommendation is that if somebody else is GM that you don't argue with your GM as much as you've tried to argue your point here. It'll just drag the game to a halt.
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Old 11-05-2015, 07:44 AM   #44
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Default Re: Questions about UT smoke, lasers, and plasma.

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Such lasers are already in UT. That note about smoke on p.114 you're relying on is under _High Energy Lasers(TL9)_. On p.117 X-ray Lasers and p.118 for Gamma Ray Lasers are noted as coming in the same models as High Energy Lasers which establishes the X-ray and Gamma types as separate from the lower TL high energy types.

Also on p.160 Prism Smoke is explicitly noted as being ineffective v. X-ray Lasers.

Your main problem may be that you're trying to create a new rule about existing equipment and you don't seem to be the GM. The GM could do it on nothing but his arbitrary authority but if you're not the GM you can't quote the rules as telling GMs to do this. If SJGames wanted smoke to stop Plasma guns it would say so in the book.

However, my main recommendation is that if somebody else is GM that you don't argue with your GM as much as you've tried to argue your point here. It'll just drag the game to a halt.
Whoa now, I intend to argue the point here until a satisfying resolution, then present the thread to him outside of the game. From there he can draw his own conclusions armed with plenty of peoples opinions and knowledge. Unless the answer is definitely don't worry about smoke, which I don't see here.

Besides that, the x-ray and gamma lasers don't describe why they are unaffected by smoke, it could be that they ignore it like many other lasers do for clear air. In which case the plasma bolt would explode on contact with the smoke. Now from this thread I don't think that is the case, I think its just that the description is irreconcilable with anything else in UT or real science.
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Old 11-05-2015, 07:48 AM   #45
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Default Re: Questions about UT smoke, lasers, and plasma.

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Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
Unfortunately, there is no such frequency. Maybe in the RF range, but you can't get any sort of collimation with RF so that's useless.

Luke
Oh, I know--or rather, I know nothing about it and I'll take people's word for it. That's why I said "technobabble." But according to everyone here, plasma weapons are already nonsense physics (as is weapons-grade lasers being easily stopped by smoke, according to some). So I am suggesting patching on some more bad physics in a way that is 1) superficially consistent, and 2) generates an interesting, playable game effect.

You want plasma weapons to be differentiated from laser weapons--to have a different feel. With my suggested solution you get that. Laser weapons simply peter out in smoke. Plasma weapons by contrast penetrate the smoke for some distance and then explode. That has a certain cool factor, no?
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Old 11-05-2015, 07:57 AM   #46
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Questions about UT smoke, lasers, and plasma.

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Originally Posted by sethbrayman View Post
Whoa now, I intend to argue the point here until a satisfying resolution, then present the thread to him outside of the game. From there he can draw his own conclusions armed with plenty of peoples opinions and knowledge. Unless the answer is definitely don't worry about smoke, which I don't see here.

.
_Definitely_ don't worry about smoke and plasma weapons.
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Old 11-05-2015, 08:06 AM   #47
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Default Re: Questions about UT smoke, lasers, and plasma.

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Originally Posted by Adversary View Post
Oh, I know--or rather, I know nothing about it and I'll take people's word for it. That's why I said "technobabble." But according to everyone here, plasma weapons are already nonsense physics (as is weapons-grade lasers being easily stopped by smoke, according to some). So I am suggesting patching on some more bad physics in a way that is 1) superficially consistent, and 2) generates an interesting, playable game effect.

You want plasma weapons to be differentiated from laser weapons--to have a different feel. With my suggested solution you get that. Laser weapons simply peter out in smoke. Plasma weapons by contrast penetrate the smoke for some distance and then explode. That has a certain cool factor, no?
Yeah, I like this technobabble solution the best. It mostly fits with the description and how smoke and lasers works under UT rules without bringing up a ton of other questions. And it would have a fun effect if someone mistakenly fires a plasma weapon at the wrong time.

*EDIT: whoops I got you and Anaraxes post confused. A mix of the 2 solutions!
**EDIT: because they are actually right along the same lines.

Last edited by sethbrayman; 11-05-2015 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 11-05-2015, 08:07 AM   #48
T.K.
 
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Default Re: Questions about UT smoke, lasers, and plasma.

Definitely don't worry about smoke.










...unless it's magical, pixie-dust, mana empowered smoke!
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Old 11-05-2015, 08:28 AM   #49
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Default Re: Questions about UT smoke, lasers, and plasma.

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Definitely don't worry about smoke.










...unless it's magical, pixie-dust, mana empowered smoke!

Heh, by definitely I mean backed up by clear use of UT rules or even UT rules and real world science! Unfortunately it doesn't seem like that will be possible, the UT description of the plasma weapon and the UT description of what smoke does, along with how lasers and smoke really work doesn't seem to jive together. I guess that's just SS right...
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Old 11-05-2015, 09:36 AM   #50
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Default Re: Questions about UT smoke, lasers, and plasma.

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Originally Posted by sethbrayman View Post
Heh, by definitely I mean backed up by clear use of UT rules or even UT rules and real world science! Unfortunately it doesn't seem like that will be possible, the UT description of the plasma weapon and the UT description of what smoke does, along with how lasers and smoke really work doesn't seem to jive together. I guess that's just SS right...
I'd have to review, but I don't think that's actually a conflict. It's not going to be a visible-light laser... (Though the way X/Gamma lasers in air work is also inconsistent with it I guess.)

The part that's really inconsistent is that the front-runner laser punches through air and smoke but not through walls or people. That's most likely because the laser is strictly a (inadequate) excuse for the thing.
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