How many goblins can you take in a fight -- or: size modifiers and realism

[Anders Gabrielsson]

One thing to remember regarding weapons is teamwork. In human-on-human fights it's rarely feasible to use crewed melee weapons (with the possible exceptions of really long pikes and similar weapons used in tight formations - could that be another option?) but ranged weapons is another question. For 2' kobolds a mounted heavy human crossbow could function like a ballista (or whichever that one is; I always get the terminology wrong) except it would probably be a lot faster to move and set up.

Creatures that small could probably use larger spears like battering rams. I'm thinking four-kobold teams with a spear with two handles along each side, each kobold holding the spear in one hand and a shield in the other, rushing forward with the spear at (their) shoulder height. Sure, a human might be able to knock one of them out or away with a sword or mace, but unless he takes care to defend himself he'll get a spear coming at him at the height of his upper thighs or groin. If it's just one SM -2 guy stabbing you it's probably not very dangerous, but three or four? That should hurt. (I'm thinking the positive to hit modifier for the SM difference should approximately cancel out the penalty they should get for having to work together, and even if they take a slight to-hit penalty their combined ST should be high enough to make it dangerous to take the hit. Is there a good way to calculate that, by the way?)

[Fnugus]

First of all, sorry for not reading the entire thread (only almost), but I noticed the lack of attention given to spear throwers... It's true that small creatures have abysmal thr damage, but the spear throwers essentially change thr to sw, while also increasing throwing range... Of course each spear only gets used once, but spears are cheap and not very time-consuming to make..

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Anders Gabrielsson

Creatures that small could probably use larger spears like battering rams.
.....
(I'm thinking the positive to hit modifier for the SM difference should approximately cancel out the penalty they should get for having to work together, and even if they take a slight to-hit penalty their combined ST should be high enough to make it dangerous to take the hit. Is there a good way to calculate that, by the way?)

An interesting suggestion. As far as I know it was never used by humans hunting megafauna, and there's likely a reason for that - skill penalties for working together, possibly ST penalties if they can't time the attack perfectly, the ease of spotting and avoiding such an attack, etc. Assuming that the attack can be timed to take advantage of everyone's ST, I'd use the same guideline as multiple grapplers: use the strongest attackers ST, plus 1/5 the combined ST of the rest of the team. So a half-dozen ST 5 kobolds would effectively attack at ST 10. This might mean that, while it's useful for penetrating armor, a single combined attack actually does less damage on average than all of the kobolds attacking independently.

[Ulzgoroth]

Low Tech has rules for multi-man pikes.

[Anders Gabrielsson]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Low Tech has rules for multi-man pikes.

So it does! Basically, you get two people sharing a pike with reach 3+ (though smaller creatures could presumably use shorter weapons) and use the lower Spear skill with the lower ST adding 1/5 to the higher (rounded down, so +1 in this case). Not very effective for our poor goblins and kobolds, it seems.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

An interesting suggestion. As far as I know it was never used by humans hunting megafauna, and there's likely a reason for that - skill penalties for working together, possibly ST penalties if they can't time the attack perfectly, the ease of spotting and avoiding such an attack, etc. Assuming that the attack can be timed to take advantage of everyone's ST, I'd use the same guideline as multiple grapplers: use the strongest attackers ST, plus 1/5 the combined ST of the rest of the team. So a half-dozen ST 5 kobolds would effectively attack at ST 10. This might mean that, while it's useful for penetrating armor, a single combined attack actually does less damage on average than all of the kobolds attacking independently.

The Seminole told stories about crocidiles so big they used teams of men to ram a fire sharpened log down it's throat... after they wedged it open, of course.

Mer, I'm still partial to the Kusari/rope darts, nets and clubs.

[Anders Gabrielsson]

I think there will be big differences between skirmishes and pitched battles between organized forces.

In a skirmish nets and ropes will be excellent weapons against a larger enemy - the little guys can run around and trip up the big'uns one and one with hit-squads going in with picks or clubs to finish them off once they're down. (Could this also be used against cavalry?)

However, that won't work at all against a phalanx or tercio-style formation. is there any way for kobolds or goblins to fight effectively and take advantage of their smaller size in that type of situation?

[mhd]

Originally Posted by Anders Gabrielsson

However, that won't work at all against a phalanx or tercio-style formation. is there any way for kobolds or goblins to fight effectively and take advantage of their smaller size in that type of situation?

Why would the goblins need to assemble in a phalanx, too? That's probably one of their weakest points, and while they could field more warriors in the same area, they'd literally be pushed around without mercy.

First of all, goblins should select both time and territory of their battles. They're more mobile, both on foot and mounted (wolfs tend to fare better than horses in forests or rocky terrain), they kinda like digging – and the big one: night vision (unless fighting against elves/dwarves etc.).

Dig traps/fortifications, use skirmish tactics, ballistas, quickly retreat. Don't let push come to shove…

[Anders Gabrielsson]

I didn't mean the goblins should use that type of formation; I meant to ask how they should best counter that.

Using guerilla tactics does seem to be the strongest alternative, but what if they need to hold territory? Is there any way for them to fight effectively against a well-organized army of humans?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Anders Gabrielsson

I didn't mean the goblins should use that type of formation; I meant to ask how they should best counter that.

Using guerilla tactics does seem to be the strongest alternative, but what if they need to hold territory? Is there any way for them to fight effectively against a well-organized army of humans?

They two options, one is much the same options as the big folk, build walls/barricades that are too big to scale easily, and rind death from above.

The other are bottleneks, especially ones with a height ceiling high enough for the small folk to work with not issues, but become an cramping issue for big folk.