Parrying Heavy Weapons: Why Weapon Weight?

[LazarusDarkeyes]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have always conceptualized basic attack damage as *roughly* equivalent to [scientific] force.

So what I always thought was a little off was that a 4lb. staff Parrying a 12 lb. shield has the same chances to break if the shield was wielded by someone of ST 7 or ST 30. It would seem to me the damage the attack inflicts would matter much more than the weight of the attacking weapon...

Thoughts?

[crimin]

I've always been a bit curious about that myself. I can see how it works with combatants of similar strength, but when you get into bigger differences like you find in fantasy campaigns (which I run) it can seem a bit odd at times. Just because the ogre is wielding a greatsword instead of a SM+2 maul, it still seems like parrying it should cause some problem for the little thief parrying with a shortsword.

In some cases I've just told the players that the enemy is too strong to parry the attack and they're fine with it, but I'd prefer to know exactly where a cutoff point should be, or where a big fighter might still be able to parry it. *shrug*

I've been tempted in the past to come up with some sort of damage (or dice of damage) conversion to replace the max "parryable" weight, but never got around to it. This would probably get messy since you'd have to figure your own ST into it as well (and possibly weapon skill to represent being more able to turn the blow instead of just using the weapon as a long skinny shield).

I've also run into this complain from players, but for shields. I resolved their problem with blocking high-damage attacks by just saying that if someone blocks an attack or a shield's DB makes the difference in a parry or dodge that the defense succeeds but the target suffers knockback. That's worked out well so far, and has led to some amusing moments on the battlefield - like goblins learning to fly. :)

Tim

[aesir23]

[non-physicist speculation]Well, a light weapon traveling at a higher speed might have the same Force as a heavier weapon traveling at a slower speed, but the light weapon would have less inertia, and, IIRC, would still come to a stop easier when parried.[/non-physicist speculation]

[vierasmarius]

I suppose the problem with using damage to determine weapon breakage is that there are many non-inertia factors that go in to it (the flanges of a mace, or the sharp edge of a Fine sword) which (I suspect) shouldn't have any bearing on how well it can break a target weapon. There's also the factor of rules complexity...

[Gudiomen]

Well, one thing to remember is that when two objects collide with a given force, they both take damage (or are stressed).

Force becomes irrelevant because it's always the same being applied to both objects, be they light or heavy.

Mass, then, determines which one has a greater chance of breaking and which one can soak up much more impact.

I'm rationalizing here, this comes from no real physics knowledge...

A more realistic system would probably have damage thresholds for weapons based on their structural integrity and every hit or parry might trigger a roll to break if it exceeded that threshold, or you could just apply damage that exceeds the weapon's DR to it's HP. You'd always have to roll damage though, and treat every clash more or less like a Slam.

[Crispythemighty]

Just as a side point. Large and/or strong weapon welding creatures would logically use heavy weapons by choice. I can't find the reference to making bigger weapons/equipment. I think its in Fantasy, Low Tech, or Martial Arts.

But if you want a simple rule calling on it. Try adding 1/10 of a large strength creature's ST to the weapon weight that exceeds the minST for the weapon. Similar to unarmed parrying of the strong creatures on p376 in Basic. (Parrying Heavy Weapons)

[Stupid Jedi]

Originally Posted by Crispythemighty

Just as a side point. Large and/or strong weapon welding creatures would logically use heavy weapons by choice. I can't find the reference to making bigger weapons/equipment. I think its in Fantasy, Low Tech, or Martial Arts.

But if you want a simple rule calling on it. Try adding 1/10 of a large strength creature's ST to the weapon weight that exceeds the minST for the weapon. Similar to unarmed parrying of the strong creatures on p376 in Basic. (Parrying Heavy Weapons)

I like this rule.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Crispythemighty

But if you want a simple rule calling on it. Try adding 1/10 of a large strength creature's ST to the weapon weight that exceeds the minST for the weapon. Similar to unarmed parrying of the strong creatures on p376 in Basic. (Parrying Heavy Weapons)

I'd use 1/20 of BL instead, it scales better. But yeah, that's a good suggestion.

[Bibiribobiri]

Scaping a bit from the topic:

What if a strong not so big char (like an st 20 vampire) strikes with a broadsword. "Realisticly" a normal st 10 person whould suffer a big impact if he tryed to block or parry that attack. Is there any rule to cover this?

[Dunadin777]

The Parrying Heavy Weapons rule is a simplification of a slam between two weapons, which is normally based on HP. Since you don't normally stat up weapons, and since they generally will be homogenous, you can use comparative weights as a shorthand. As mentioned previously, the speed of the weapon being swung doesn't matter because both weapons are hitting each other at the same relative speed. All that matters is the weapon's breaking point, which is why weight is the central issue.

If you wanted, you could apply knockback to any high ST attack that is successfully blocked or parried, but generally the bigger issue is that the heavier weapon has more hit points and will be able to take the slam better.