Does the Mind Control advantage establish a telepathic link?

[Michael Thayne]

It sure seems like Mind Control establishes a one-way telepathic link with unlimited range that overcomes all translation barriers. At least for communicating orders—I guess it doesn't work for anything that isn't an order. This is sort of surprising because none of that is quite explicit, and if it's not mentioned you might think you need additional enhancements for those features. But it's pretty clear language doesn't matter for mind control unless a limitation says otherwise, since it works on animals and one build in Powers explicitly says it ignores language. And it's also pretty clear you don't need to open your mouth unless you take the Hearing-Based limitation. What's most surprising is the unlimited range once control is established, but that's just a consequence of the fact that you don't roll a quick contest to give orders in most cases, you roll a quick contest to gain the ability to give orders. Range penalties don't matter for giving orders (unless the order is suicidal, etc.), because there's no roll for the range penalty to apply to. I feel like this may have been overlooked because with a duration measured in minutes once you stop concentrating, your thralls will rarely get very far. But with Extended Duration this could become a significant fringe benefit. Am I reading this right?

[Plane]

One possible easy solve if this ability's seen as too strong if unlimited: if we're not actually told "unlimited range for giving orders" is to defer to B101's "Range, Area, and Duration for Advantages"

Perhaps for example we assume it's not possible to Mind Control anyone further than 100 yards away? Is "Exceptions will be noted" fulfilled?

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

It sure seems like Mind Control establishes a one-way telepathic link with unlimited range that overcomes all translation barriers. At least for communicating orders—I guess it doesn't work for anything that isn't an order.

I wouldn't say unlimited range, there's a soft cap on that since B68 says to use the B550 table, you'd need the Long-Range enhancement to alter that. Unless of course you mean the link has unlimited range once established?

Powers 149 under Linguistic Programming refers to "a master language understood by all sapient minds" but then it also has the Sound-Based limitation...

The question raised by that is: does Sound-Based just remove other possibly options for giving orders that normally exist (hand signals, written instructions, telesend) or actually introduce the requirement that instructions be communicated?

Based on Super-Hypnotism (same page) I gues what you mean about the implied telepathy because "Lets the user implant suggestions with a glance" and "can silently convey a suggestion" don't sound like there's any kind of lingual process, and this lacks any kind of enhancement or paired ability to bestow it.

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

This is sort of surprising because none of that is quite explicit, and if it's not mentioned you might think you need additional enhancements for those features.

Right, or limitations to remove them.

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

But it's pretty clear language doesn't matter for mind control
unless a limitation says otherwise, since it works on animals

Although there's nothing on B68/B69 to imply any creature with a mind is off limits, it's interesting to note that since Linguistic Programming specifies "sapient minds" and there's no limitation to reflect "can't affect sub-sapient minds" (IQ 1-5) that it might assume you need Speaks with Animals to use Mind Control on animals.

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

it's also pretty clear you don't need to open your mouth unless you take the Hearing-Based limitation

I'm actually confused as to why you'd need to open your mind at all. Hearing-Based is at least "your target must be able to hear you" but is it also by necessity "you need to make audible noise when using your ability" ?

I'm guessing Sense-Based doesn't combine well with No Signature or Low Signature if it relies on five-senses assumptions of ability indicators.

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

What's most surprising is the unlimited range once control is established, but that's just a consequence of the fact that you don't roll a quick contest to give orders in most cases, you roll a quick contest to gain the ability to give orders.

If you want to make ongoing rolls I think you'd take "REquires IQ roll" limitation so that you're making them once per minute.

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Range penalties don't matter for giving orders (unless the order is suicidal, etc.), because there's no roll for the range penalty to apply to. I feel like this may have been overlooked because with a duration measured in minutes once you stop concentrating, your thralls will rarely get very far. But with Extended Duration this could become a significant fringe benefit. Am I reading this right?

Probably one of the big limitations in giving orders at long range is that unless you have a crystal ball to know what's happening to your thrall, you won't really have feedback as to what orders to give them.

Them being able to hear your commands doesn't for example mean they can convey back to you what they're experiencing or doing.

I do like the idea of range mattering with ongoing thrall maintenance, so applying the B550 penalties to "requires IQ roll" per-minute checks might be a sensible conclusion.

I don't think that's standard for requires (attribute) roll checks though, so it might require some customization to have the Short-Range limitation apply to that as well.

Applying limitations to factors introduced by other limitations is something I don't really have a grasp of.

- - -

One interesting thing to note is a way to get immunity to standard mind control:

Powers 61 "With Cybernetic Only (p. B70), Mind Control even allows control over computers"
Powers 161 "Mind Control: Many skills can replace IQ: Animal Handling to affect beasts, Computer Hacking to control computers (requires Cybernetic or Cybernetic Only),"

The thing is, these aren't modifiers written for Mind Control, they're written for Mind Reading... the +50% of Cybernetic seems baked into the -50% of Cybernetic Only, so "doesn't work on non-cybernetic minds" could be thought of as being a -100% limitation I guess?

There's a lack of "requires X" parenthesis for P161's reference to Animal Handling, so maybe there's an accessibility left out of the writeup for Linguistic Programming?

Cybernetic ties in with "Digital Mind" which is completely immune to any power defined as “Telepathic” so I'm not sure if that means immunity to ALL mind control (assumed to be telepathic) or merely that it's immunity to Mind Control that takes the -10% "Telepathic" limitation.\

P134 also seems relevant here regarding animal flexibility:

Telepathy normally only affects living, sapient beings (IQ 6+) – but the GM should allow it to work on all sentient minds (IQ 1+) in game worlds where the Animal
Control power doesn’t exist

P121 also uses the -25% accessibility/specialized we see in the Animal Control version of Mind Control in GURPS Sorcery:

Advantages marked * involve direct mental contact, and require Specialized, Animals Only, -25% (see Possession, p. 67). They work only on ordinary, nonsapient animals.

P134 kinda bothers me because a lack of animal control shouldn't really make something better: 1+ should always be worth more points than 6+.

--

cross-examination is also an interesting issue, as P195 talks about:

A mind-controlled victim can be cross-examined at will, making this an effective if indirect form of mindreading, prone to derail mystery plots.
The mind controller does need to know what questions to ask, but “What should I ask?” is a good start . . .

If you can effectively telesend an order like "tell me what to ask you" then could you necessarily understand the answer? An English-only human sending that order to a French-only dwarf, would you even know what to ask when the command is obeyed in French?

[ericthered]

I've always played it that way. I often restrict its ability to send words, but usually getting the wording exact isn't a big deal. Its most often useful for communicating silently across a room.

Originally Posted by Plane

If you can effectively telesend an order like "tell me what to ask you" then could you necessarily understand the answer? An English-only human sending that order to a French-only dwarf, would you even know what to ask when the command is obeyed in French?

I need French-speaking dwarves in my next game.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

It sure seems like Mind Control establishes a one-way telepathic link with unlimited range that overcomes all translation barriers.

I see it as not speaking in words into someone's mind to tell them what to do but as just visualizing what it is that you want them to do. There would be some limitations. Without a common language you wouldn't be able to tell them to tell their bosses a lie in their language although you could puppet them to talk in your language.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Plane

One possible easy solve if this ability's seen as too strong if unlimited: if we're not actually told "unlimited range for giving orders" is to defer to B101's "Range, Area, and Duration for Advantages"

Perhaps for example we assume it's not possible to Mind Control anyone further than 100 yards away? Is "Exceptions will be noted" fulfilled?

Huh, I've never really looked at that box before. Though it seems redundant in most cases where it would apply—a sort of "in case we forget to say elsewhere" except GURPS books are pretty good about not forgetting to say when it matters.

In this case, putting a hard 100 yard limit on Mind Control seems to defeat the purpose of canonical builds (particularly in Psionic Powers) that add Long-Range to it to reduce the range penalties.

I'm actually confused as to why you'd need to open your mind at all. Hearing-Based is at least "your target must be able to hear you" but is it also by necessity "you need to make audible noise when using your ability" ?

I assume you meant "mouth", not "mind". The answer is that that's how it's used in some canonical builds in e.g. Powers—including the Linguistic Programming example you mention.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I see it as not speaking in words into someone's mind to tell them what to do but as just visualizing what it is that you want them to do. There would be some limitations. Without a common language you wouldn't be able to tell them to tell their bosses a lie in their language although you could puppet them to talk in your language.

The puppeteering interpretation of Mind Control seems problematic given that the general assumption seems to be actions taken under Mind Control use the controllee's skills, not the controller's. Puppeteering is covered separately by Possession.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

In this case, putting a hard 100 yard limit on Mind Control seems to defeat the purpose of canonical builds (particularly in Psionic Powers) that add Long-Range to it to reduce the range penalties.

You can add Long-Range to Innate Attack or Binding or Affliction too though to also reduce the penalties, even though it's less useful unless you also took Increased Range.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

The puppeteering interpretation of Mind Control seems problematic given that the general assumption seems to be actions taken under Mind Control use the controllee's skills, not the controller's. Puppeteering is covered separately by Possession.

I wasn't suggesting it would go that far. Just that you couldn't tell them what to say in a language you don't speak because you wouldn't be imagine what they'd say. Although I suppose you could imagine it in general terms.

[Plane]

did some digging and noticed something strange...

page 27 of Powers - The Weird has "Imperium" which like P149's Linguistic Programming has a Hearing-Based discount, but it ALSO has discounts for "Only those who know your language" and "Must be able to speak".

Clearly the first is not intended with Linguistic Programming (you speak a 'universal' language) but it sounds like the 2nd might have been but they left it out, or thought it was somehow implied by Hearing-Based and The Weird amended that?

I was thinking "must be able to speak" might possibly be rephrased though: since it is described "by speaking a command" it sounds like you don't only need the ABILITY to speak, but must actually USE that ability, so it could probably be shortened to "must speak", which is bother simpler and more accurate.

That "what my target must hear happens to be the sounds emitted when I speak" is OTOH just the natural arrangement of things, because when you specify Sense-Based there is clearly some kind of sensory information from SOMETHING a target absorbs.

For stuff like Innate Attack that would be the sound/light/smell your attack creates, which sounds like No Signature would make it impossible for Sense-Based attacks to work unless you also took Selective Effect in which case it could be No Signature in respect to everyone EXCEPT your target?

Mind Control is inherently a No Signature ability which is I think why "must speak" is needed to give it a "signature" (you're talking) to link any form of Sense-Based to.

That or... can Sense-Based just be linked to any sort of random thing?

When I think of Affliction (Sight-Based) I'm thinking "he needs to be looking in my direction" not "he needs to be looking at his watch".