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Old 08-09-2022, 11:52 AM   #1
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

So, I've been thinking about the -4 DX penalty for attacking a flying critter and I searched for references to this penalty in ITL. They occur here and there, but these are the relevant references I've found (for purposes of this discussion, anyway):

Quote:
Originally Posted by ITL 25 (Flight Spell)
Any attack on a flying (one-hex) creature
is at -4 DX.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITL 104 (Movement/Flight)
The -4 DX to hit a flying creature should not be applied to a flying person or
larger creature in a tunnel...

(Remember, too, the -4 DX penalty for attacking any flying creature.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITL 113 (Bola)
Note: any attack on a flying creature (except a magical
attack) is at a DX adjustment of -4. Fliers are hard to hit.
Attacking the wings of a flying creature is at -6!
The first thing to notice is that the Flight Spell entry suggests that only one-hex flyers benefit from the penalty. Obviously, smaller ones should as well, but if you look at the Movement excerpt, it very strongly suggests that larger flyers also have the defensive benefit when out of doors. There is an evident inconsistency here.

NOTE: It's not an inconsistency if "larger creature" means "larger than a person but still one-hex.

Now, let's think about the Bola entry. It's the only entry that suggests an exception for magical attacks, which is clearly not present in the Movement excerpt. It's not at all clear what a magical attack is, but if we take this quote literally, neither Missile Spells nor Staff Zaps have a -4 DX penalty when attacking a flyer. I'd say that the quote from Movement clearly does suggest that both of these attacks have a penalty.

NOTE: Also not an inconsistency if Missile Spells and Staff Zaps are not magical "attacks", but the latter is implausible, since the zap is referred to as an "occult attack" on ITL 26 and also because, well, come on.

So, here we have a knot of different rules which appear to be inconsistent. I'd like to know how others answer the following questions. I'll put my answer in parentheses.
  1. Is there a -4 DX penalty when attacking a multi-hex flyer? Does it depend on whether the flyer is using a flight spell? (On the fence here, but for now assuming that the penalty applies.)
  2. Do Missile Spells suffer a -4 DX penalty against flyers? (Yes, not taking the Bola entry too seriously)
  3. Do Staff Zaps suffer the same? (Again, yes -- ignoring that some treat the zap as a creation spell rather than an attack)
  4. Do magical weapons suffer the penalty? (Absolutely -- I don't think an attack with a magic sword is a "magical attack")
  5. I leave other questions about magical attacks as an exercise for the reader.
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Old 08-09-2022, 01:26 PM   #2
hcobb
 
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Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

Note also GM Screen note on "Target is a multi-hex figure in flight"
https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#GMscreen
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Old 08-09-2022, 02:25 PM   #3
phiwum
 
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Location: Boston area
Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

Well, that's another inconsistency, but I won't worry about the GM screen for now.
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Old 08-09-2022, 08:39 PM   #4
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
So, I've been thinking about the -4 DX penalty for attacking a flying critter and I searched for references to this penalty in ITL. They occur here and there, but these are the relevant references I've found (for purposes of this discussion, anyway):







The first thing to notice is that the Flight Spell entry suggests that only one-hex flyers benefit from the penalty. Obviously, smaller ones should as well, but if you look at the Movement excerpt, it very strongly suggests that larger flyers also have the defensive benefit when out of doors. There is an evident inconsistency here.

NOTE: It's not an inconsistency if "larger creature" means "larger than a person but still one-hex.

Now, let's think about the Bola entry. It's the only entry that suggests an exception for magical attacks, which is clearly not present in the Movement excerpt. It's not at all clear what a magical attack is, but if we take this quote literally, neither Missile Spells nor Staff Zaps have a -4 DX penalty when attacking a flyer. I'd say that the quote from Movement clearly does suggest that both of these attacks have a penalty.

NOTE: Also not an inconsistency if Missile Spells and Staff Zaps are not magical "attacks", but the latter is implausible, since the zap is referred to as an "occult attack" on ITL 26 and also because, well, come on.

So, here we have a knot of different rules which appear to be inconsistent. I'd like to know how others answer the following questions. I'll put my answer in parentheses.
  1. Is there a -4 DX penalty when attacking a multi-hex flyer? Does it depend on whether the flyer is using a flight spell? (On the fence here, but for now assuming that the penalty applies.)
  2. Do Missile Spells suffer a -4 DX penalty against flyers? (Yes, not taking the Bola entry too seriously)
  3. Do Staff Zaps suffer the same? (Again, yes -- ignoring that some treat the zap as a creation spell rather than an attack)
  4. Do magical weapons suffer the penalty? (Absolutely -- I don't think an attack with a magic sword is a "magical attack")
  5. I leave other questions about magical attacks as an exercise for the reader.
I think that this is a reasonable assessment that yields consistency out of a pool of inconsistency.

Hitting a one hex flying creature starts with -4 DX. Adjustments are made for multi-hex targets as applicable. This makes it work toward incrementally smaller DX adjustment based upon size and facing. It should apply to most direct attacks including magical ones with, perhaps, some exceptions per ITL.
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Old 08-09-2022, 10:47 PM   #5
Skarg
 
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Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
  1. Is there a -4 DX penalty when attacking a multi-hex flyer? Does it depend on whether the flyer is using a flight spell? (On the fence here, but for now assuming that the penalty applies.)
  2. Do Missile Spells suffer a -4 DX penalty against flyers? (Yes, not taking the Bola entry too seriously)
  3. Do Staff Zaps suffer the same? (Again, yes -- ignoring that some treat the zap as a creation spell rather than an attack)
  4. Do magical weapons suffer the penalty? (Absolutely -- I don't think an attack with a magic sword is a "magical attack")
1. Yes, -4 for multi-hex fliers, but +1 to hit multi-hex figures for each extra hex you have line-of-sight to (not through itself). No, a flight spell is just one way to fly.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Yes, of course.
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Old 08-10-2022, 01:46 AM   #6
hcobb
 
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Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

The staff zap is a special spell (hence a variant of a thrown spell) and hence ignores flying.
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Old 08-10-2022, 07:46 AM   #7
phiwum
 
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Location: Boston area
Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
1. Yes, -4 for multi-hex fliers, but +1 to hit multi-hex figures for each extra hex you have line-of-sight to (not through itself). No, a flight spell is just one way to fly.
But that +1 is of course only for thrown or missile weapons, not melee attacks against a flyer who chooses to engage a figure on the ground.

Quote:
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Yes, of course.
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Old 08-10-2022, 07:51 AM   #8
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
The staff zap is a special spell (hence a variant of a thrown spell) and hence ignores flying.
You can keep saying that (and it's you I had in mind, though I mistakenly wrote "creation" instead of "special"), but it ain't a damned spell at my table because it is not referred to as a spell anywhere in the book that I can see.

No need to go into that not-really-a-debate again. We'll agree that if it's a spell, your conclusion is obviously correct. We'll also agree, I think, that if it is an attack and not a spell, the penalty applies. We'll disagree on whether it is in fact a spell or an attack, but that's not what this thread's about.
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Old 08-10-2022, 08:38 AM   #9
hcobb
 
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Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

See also WSRB page 7: "DX ADJUSTMENTS DUE TO TYPE OF TARGET (FOR EITHER CASTING OF SPELLS OR PHYSICAL ATTACKS )"

So spells suffer the same penalties.

Also see
ITL 133: "Most flying creatures may attack foes on the ground. This attack will also be at -4 DX"
and
ITL 25: "so if he/she attacks while in the air, his/her DX will be adjusted by -2 for regular physical attacks or magic spells cast on another"

So if a flying dragon attacks a ground target is it -4, -2, or zero adjustment?
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Old 08-10-2022, 08:51 AM   #10
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Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
1. Yes, -4 for multi-hex fliers, but +1 to hit multi-hex figures for each extra hex you have line-of-sight to (not through itself)..
As far as I can tell, the bonus for being able to see hexes of the target beyond the target hex only applies to missile weapons. Apparently, aiming a spear thrust at the multihex side of a dragon is no easier than at a man, but shooting it with a crossbow is.

I'll take the opportunity to point out that the penalty for a flying figure's attack against a grounded one listed on ITL 24 (-2DX for regular attacks) is inconsistent with that listed on ITL 133 (-4DX).

[EDIT: I see now that Henry was working on the same idea as me while I was typing]
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Last edited by Shostak; 08-10-2022 at 08:54 AM. Reason: updating
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