08-02-2022, 04:49 PM | #11 |
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Re: Costs in GURPS dollars
If you have a modern price, then GURP$ = USD 2004 = 1.6 USD 2022, per the US Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator, which goes back to 1913 if you have a fairly recent historical setting. Before 1913, dollar values were largely flat back to about 1800 (with a couple of exceptions, like right after the War of 1812 and the American Civil War).
Basic (B27) gives us the $1 = 1 loaf of bread (or equivalent staple) conversion. Ancestry.com has an online, searchable database of Sears, Roebuck catalogs from 1896 to 1993. They'll show you little snippet images of where your search term appears, which might or not not be helpful, but you have to pay for an account to get full access (along with the other stuff the company provides). Of course, if your setting is sufficiently different from real/historical Earth, the economy is possibly skewed in all sorts of ways, and in different directions for different types of goods. |
08-02-2022, 07:04 PM | #12 |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Costs in GURPS dollars
However, ten cents in 1934 is not $0.10 as defined in GURPS 4/e. GURPS 4/e uses 2004 dollars, approximately. Those seventy years made a big difference to the purchasing power of a dollar.
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08-02-2022, 08:47 PM | #13 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pioneer Valley
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Re: Costs in GURPS dollars
And really, look: a lot of the GURPS $ conversions in various books -- especially the further back you get -- are fiats. Far too much of what we surmise about pre-17th century pricing comes from estate records, and once you get into the medieval era, the more honest economists freely admit that they're guessing a lot of the time about what coinages are worth and measures weigh.
Beyond that, there's the biggest fiat of all: that even over a particular TL, prices are stable between regions and years. I was a college freshman just 45 years ago next month, and the cost in Boston at McDonalds of a hamburger + small fries + small drink (this being my typical afternoon meal) was 99 cents. It's rather more now. Heck, my grocery store charges nearly 20 times as much for an 18 oz loaf of bread than the Egyptian subsidized prices for a KILO of bread. When I moved out of Boston eleven years ago to a town in the western part of Massachusetts, just ninety miles away, my apartment price nearly HALVED. So ... ultimately, just set your prices. They're not going to be "wrong" if they're consistent to your setting. And when in doubt, things are going to cost what they cost. If the price you set for an automobile is somehow twice normal, all that means is that my character's less likely to own one.
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08-03-2022, 01:35 AM | #14 | ||
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Location: Sumter, SC
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Re: Costs in GURPS dollars
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As I mentioned there is a lot of range even within a TL especially the early ones which cover insanely huge amounts of time. The income of 1890 and 1930 way different even though they are both TL6. Also there is inconstancy with saying GURPS 4/e uses 2004 dollars, approximately. $10,000 in 2004 is $846.03 in 1930 (TL6) but TL8 has $20k as the base which is $1,692.07 in 1930 — that is a huge difference. Quote:
"Actual pay at each TL varies within a range bracketed by the typical monthly pay of the previous TL and that of the next TL." (Basic Set p 517) Personally I prefer Pyramid 3/44: Alternate GURPS II's "Abstract Wealth" as it bypasses all the fiddling with the prices.
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08-03-2022, 06:20 AM | #15 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Costs in GURPS dollars
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If you're instead referring to the fact that TL 8 starting wealth is double TL 6's starting wealth... that's the rules working as intended. GURPS works under the assumption that people at higher TL's can afford more stuff than those at lower TL's. Buying an M1911 today represents a lower reduction in income for an average American than buying an M1911 back in 1930 would have. Well, maybe - there are some significant complicating factors in the economics of each time period, as 1930 was in the middle of the Great Depression (and there may have still been some Great War surplus bouncing around) and today's economy is... yeah (and a lot of people are buying up guns and ammunition for a variety of reasons).
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08-03-2022, 07:03 AM | #16 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
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Re: Costs in GURPS dollars
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08-03-2022, 09:06 AM | #17 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
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Re: Costs in GURPS dollars
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Classic GURPS is even more broken in that regard. Classic Book; Setting Starting Wealth; TL; 4e Starting Wealth Age of Napoleon; $750; 5; $5,000 Aztecs; $1,000; 2 (Weapons, 1; Spaniards, 4); $750 Cliffhangers; $750; 6; $10,000 Egypt; $500; 2; $750 Greece; $5,000; 1; $500 Japan; $1,000; 3 (Northern wilderness, 1; transport, 2; metallurgy, 4); $1,000 (TL3) Ice Age; 20 $kins (20 hours work); 0; $250 Imperial Rome; None stated; 2; $750 Old West 2e; $200 ($1000 in mining town); 5-6 $5,000-$10,000 Russia; $1,000; 2 to 4; $750 to $2,000 WWII ; $1,500; 6; $10,000
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08-03-2022, 10:22 AM | #18 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Costs in GURPS dollars
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08-03-2022, 11:24 AM | #19 |
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Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Costs in GURPS dollars
That is what the "US$1.00 in 1930 (TL6) is US$11.82 in 2004 (TL8) a 12x increase." meant. I should have used the more common "$US" as the shorthand for US Dollar.
The thing is TL6 covers from ~1880 to ~1940 where TL7 start appearing though I don't think TL7 really hits its stride until ~1950. Lets look at 1890 vs 1930 via a CPI Inflation Calculator that goes all the way back to 1635 — "Inflation data from 1634 to 1912 is sourced from a historical study conducted by political science professor Robert Sahr at Oregon State University and from the American Antiquarian Society." "$10,000 in 1890 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $207,582.42 in 2004, an increase of $197,582.42 over 114 years." and "$10,000 in 1930 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $113,113.77 in 2004, an increase of $103,113.77 over 74 years." ("$" here means "$US" not $GURPS just to clarify) Even though starting wealth is the same ($GURPS 10,000) as they are both TL6 you can buy more stuff at the beginning of TL6 then when the TL has matured as that starting wealth has nearly been cut in half (42.75%) by inflation.
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08-03-2022, 11:51 AM | #20 |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Costs in GURPS dollars
Yes, a single static starting Wealth for an entire TL isn't strictly realistic - a typical person in 1975 (near the end of TL 7) probably didn't have only ~70% of the buying power of a typical person in 1985 (near the beginning of TL 8), for example, and as you note someone at the start of TL 6 had much less buying power than someone at the end of that TL. But your posts read as though you were treating GURPS $ as USD in the time period observed - such as your statement that GURPS wasn't properly accounting for the ~12x increase in costs from inflation when going from 1930 to 2004 by giving characters only 2x the funds. GURPS $ are a semi-arbitrary unit of worth that is inflation-proof. Think of them as "credits" if you're getting stuck on the fact they use the same abbreviation as USD. A character with 20,000 GURPS credits would have around $20,000 US in a campaign set in
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GURPS Overhaul Last edited by Varyon; 08-04-2022 at 07:27 AM. Reason: correcting typo - had 2014 instead of 2004 |
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