New Reality Seeds

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by malloyd

What is the threat to it? America likes to pretend it's the World Policeman, but it's rarely clear what the threats they are opposing are - when it is, America usually isn't doing a very good job of policing them.... You've set up a situation where pretty much everybody significant seems to have similar interests, so what is the threat that India, Europe, Japan, China and Russia couldn't crush without American help if they needed to?

Picture India, Europe (and a Europe more like pre-WWII Europe), Japan, China, and Russia, smoothly cooperating for the common good. Sounds like fantasy fiction to me. The forces needed to cooperate don't like to cooperate and rarely do. Europe and Japan may seem like exceptions but historically it took decades for them to learn to work in the present alliance.

You've been trained all your life to see only one or two bad actors on the world stage. The truth is simpler. All the actors believe they have the script and it says they are the one true star. No matter what happens all the actors on the world stage still believe that they are the star.

This makes improvisation difficult.

[Astromancer]

Pavo

Pavo is a world were alchemy is more functional than Homeline. But unlike the Azoth worlds, were there is a sudden radical change, Pavo has been slowly becoming more magical over time. As with the Gold worlds, advances in science and technology make studying the Occult arts easier. Pavo however starts earlier and has a bizarre level of historical inertia.

This Q6 parallel has a tech level that's a hard to judge blend of TL5+1 and TL6. The local year is 1797. The British know Napoleon is planning to invade. They also know that the American inventor-alchemist Robert Fulton is talking to Napoleon about self propelled boats. The British are afraid.

Basically, the Napoleonic Wars as Dark Fantastic Steampunk. Swash that buckle and cast that spell.

Magic is Path/Book, but poorly understood astrological influences make casting tricky. Although Ritual Adept exists in this world, there are no known shortcuts in the rituals themselves. Alchemy can aid in improving the quality of metals (many practical limits of period technology were limits of metallurgy). Alchemy hasn't yet been systematically applied to mass production. Thus, while individual devices are often as functional as WWI period equipment, the general level of technology available to ordinary people is a lot like Homeline in the year 1797. However, minor changes in production technology could make this world change radically.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

You've been trained all your life to see only one or two bad actors on the world stage. The truth is simpler. All the actors believe they have the script and it says they are the one true star. No matter what happens all the actors on the world stage still believe that they are the star.

But none of them have a motive for disrupting ocean trade. Sure maybe they could stumble into it by doing something purely in their own interest without considering the consequences, but realistically most of them are not idiots, and do have diplomats able to negotiate agreements without American involvement.

You don't need a single (or any) directing power for a system to become mostly ordered.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by malloyd

But none of them have a motive for disrupting ocean trade. Sure maybe they could stumble into it by doing something purely in their own interest without considering the consequences, but realistically most of them are not idiots, and do have diplomats able to negotiate agreements without American involvement.

You don't need a single (or any) directing power for a system to become mostly ordered.

Your position is ideological. Thus I can't argue history with you here. Let it drop.

[Astromancer]

Macarthur

In this Q6 Low Mana parallel, Douglas Macarthur launched another surprise amphibious attack during the Korean War. He struck at the city of Dalian. A Chinese city well east of Korea.

Truman was furious, but so was Stalin. In order to preserve his Chinese allies (who weren't in anything like the trouble Stalin thought they were in) Stalin attacked Europe. At first it looked like a sure Russian victory, but Russia soon learned the same lessons about fighting at the end of overlong supply lines and fighting on to many fronts that Germany had learned a few years earlier. Also Russia found itself fighting with no allies who could help them.

Russian troops were told to live off the land, but that soon broke down. And Russia soon realized that it lacked any way to play its nuclear card against America. Sure they could strike Britain or South Korea. But that would only enrage America.

Meanwhile, back in the States, Macarthur got the blame for the expanded war and Truman got the benefit of being the man acting presidential. The 1952 election saw Truman returned with a larger majority in both houses of Congress. (Although the Two- Term limit was made part of the constitution by this period, Truman, as in Homeline history, was excluded from the limit).

Not long after Stalin's death, the U.S.S.R. collapsed. With the Soviets gone the Chinese found their position was also falling apart. The Americans lead the UN forces into China late in 1953.

Centrum wants to grab power in this parallel. They've infiltrated Britain. They see the second rebuilding of Europe as a golden opportunity to get their hooks in everywhere. Meanwhile, the shifting priorities of the American government would give Centrum many cracks to crawl into an take over.

Homeline on the other claw sees the elimination of the Cold War as a great chance to promote transparency in the governments of the West. Something that would greatly weaken Centrum's hand.

Meanwhile, the Swagmen are looking through the displaced and disgruntled Russians for useful employees, employees that want vengeance, and could be conned into seeing their defeat as something inflicted upon them by outsiders. Those who built Atom bombs are particularly sought.

Basically, spies among the ruins. As this is a world were Europe was destroyed twice in less than fifteen years, the bitterness and cynicism is incredible. Both Fascism and Communism, have been discredited. But, outside of the Anglo-Americans, no one has any faith in democracy. This is as grimdark as it gets.

[Phil Masters]

You seem to be largely disregarding the total horrific mess that a Warsaw Pact invasion would make of a Europe still recovering from WWII. And I imagine that America would be a bit too exhausted to provide a fully effective Marshall Plan 2. I’d see this timeline as practically a Hell Parallel.

Also, you seem to have transformed the Swagmen from a pack of swashbuckling irresponsible con artists into a brutal organised crime ring. Your call, of course, but given how they’re depicted in the book, I’d tend to search-and-replace “swagmen” to “Mafia/Maffiya Alliance” in most of your timelines.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

You seem to be largely disregarding the total horrific mess that a Warsaw Pact invasion would make of a Europe still recovering from WWII. And I imagine that America would be a bit too exhausted to provide a fully effective Marshall Plan 2. I’d see this timeline as practically a Hell Parallel.

Also, you seem to have transformed the Swagmen from a pack of swashbuckling irresponsible con artists into a brutal organised crime ring. Your call, of course, but given how they’re depicted in the book, I’d tend to search-and-replace “swagmen” to “Mafia/Maffiya Alliance” in most of your timelines.

Actually I don't disregard the sheer level of hell my scenario would cause. I called it "spies among the ruins." And yes, even without a nuclear exchange Continental Europe is going to be hell for a long time. The British Isles somewhat less so. The Americas would be fine. Japan was ignored in the Russo-American fight. They'll recover more slowly than in our world. China might totally avoid the "Cultural Revolution."

As to the Swagmen, I thought that was a generic term for panchromatic crook.

[Willy]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

SNIP

As to the Swagmen, I thought that was a generic term for panchromatic crook.

Actually several orgasnisations of organized crime like the russian mafia in homeworld are known for searching and hiring from other worlds for a good deal of reasons from slave labour over armed thugs to highly skilled specialists. Sometimes they seem to do this while being ignored or even given vailed support from a homeline gouvernment.

By the way, no need to search for nuke builders, the basics can be found even in several books and Wikipedia, even worse the old plans for a working bomb were published for US schools around 1960 or earlier. The bombs in your scenario are most surely not advanced enough to go through the hassle of search and "rescue" the bomb makers there. Refined and enriched material to build such a bomb is a quite other matter and a valuable goal for such a scheme.

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

As to the Swagmen, I thought that was a generic term for panchromatic crook.

GURPS Infinite Worlds, p. 71, box-out. A crosstime extended "family" of grifters... Note that this is entirely distinct from the Outfit, the Russian Mafiya, and the Triads, which are discussed separately.

[Astromancer]

Trajan -3

In this Q5 Low Mana parallel the Roman Emperor Trajan had a cousin (Claudius Nauticus) who was a close friend of both Trajan and Nerva. This cousin has two obsessions, sea travel and India. With the patronage of first Nerva and then Trajan, Nauticus developed improved ships for the Red Sea and India trade. By the time his cousin's adoptive heir came to the throne, Nauticus's ventures were showing substantial profits and Nauticus was bringing new technology and products to Rome.

Hadrian approved of his adoptive father's cousin and allowed Nauticus to build a school of shipbuilding and exploration in Alexandria.

The school is still functioning under the reign of Marcus Aurelius. Although the Emperor's eldest son Commodus has died of a fever while exploring the lands east of India, Aurelius still supports the school and its exploration projects. As does his adoptive heir.

Basically, this is Rome with good sailors and the project of exploring the East Indies. Ancient Romans in the far east.

Note: Several technologies have already gotten to this Rome in the year 960 since the foundation of Rome. These include paper, the spinning wheel, the push peddle loom, and the box bellows. Crops like the banana, sugar cane, and mulberries, have also made it to Rome. The Library of Alexandria is fascinated by the Hindu numbers.