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Old 07-02-2021, 04:43 PM   #1
MrFix
 
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Default Stealth & Posture

When rolling Vision to spot someone, what sort of penalty do you apply to spot them based on their posture? Ranged Target penalty seems too small - a crouched man is as easy to spot as a prone one (-2).

Even more so, Tactical Shooting 27 says that a prone man gives -4 to spot him. That number is equal to the melee attack penalty made from such posture (-4 to strike with melee from prone position), but Tactical Shooting does not outright say what this penalty truly is.

So, in the end, are there true canon penalties for spotting someone in a posture other than standing?
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Old 07-02-2021, 05:40 PM   #2
Rolando
 
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Default Re: Stealth & Posture

it is not really much different to pot someone standing than someone on the ground, unless there is cover.

So the big difference is that a person flat on the ground may claim more visual cover than someone standing in the same type of ground.

A person in an empty, uniformly illuminated, parking lot is almost as easy to spot crouching or prone, even standing probably.

There are also other considerations, like point of view, someone flat on the ground may be easier to spot from above for example.
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Old 07-02-2021, 05:53 PM   #3
MrFix
 
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Default Re: Stealth & Posture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
it is not really much different to pot someone standing than someone on the ground, unless there is cover.

So the big difference is that a person flat on the ground may claim more visual cover than someone standing in the same type of ground.

A person in an empty, uniformly illuminated, parking lot is almost as easy to spot crouching or prone, even standing probably.

There are also other considerations, like point of view, someone flat on the ground may be easier to spot from above for example.
Then why do you suppose Tactical Shooting gives a prone man -4 to be spotted visually?
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Old 07-02-2021, 06:18 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Then why do you suppose Tactical Shooting gives a prone man -4 to be spotted visually?
Seems like either an error or treating the footnote as cumulative with the -2 in the table (which might be an error, Basic is obscure there). It's clearly making reference to pre-existing posture modifiers, not a non-existent new set of them, and it would be nonsensical for it to be based on the penalty to make melee attacks from that posture.
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Old 07-02-2021, 07:39 PM   #5
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Default Re: Stealth & Posture

I would've said -1 for crouching, -2 for sitting/kneeling, and -4 for prone (assuming head or feet facing the viewer). This is based on rough height (or width for a prone person) on the range/size table, with a further -1 for a prone person because humans tend to find tall things easier to see than short/wide things. For this reason I'd give 'prone and side on' a -1 even though there's not much less to see than of someone standing side-on (for which there's no given penalty and I'd not bother giving one for).

That said, cover is easier to find close to the ground, so more generous Vision penalties (or bonuses to Camouflage) would be reasonable for target who aren't standing.

Note that all this also means that pigs, dogs, and the like should be harder to spot for their size than humans.
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Old 07-02-2021, 08:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: Stealth & Posture

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
When rolling Vision to spot someone, what sort of penalty do you apply to spot them based on their posture? Ranged Target penalty seems too small - a crouched man is as easy to spot as a prone one (-2).
Assuming that the viewer's point of view is such that they can't seen the bulk of the target's body when its kneeling/prone, it seems fair to reduce the target's effective Size based on the parts that are visible.

Practically, this is the same as applying modifiers to hit a target in Cover.

That is, no penalty to see a 6' tall man (Size 0), but -2 if he effectively reduces his Size to -2 (1 yard) by sitting or lying down. Or, a +1 bonus to see a 9' long tiger, but reduced to -1 if it crouches down so that only its head, chest, and forelegs are visible.

If you can make yourself a really small target, such that only your head or part of your head is visible to the viewer (e.g., like this sniper), the GM might allow you to reduce your effective Size further, up to perhaps -10 if just a tiny portion of your body is visible.
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Old 07-02-2021, 08:38 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
it is not really much different to pot someone standing than someone on the ground, unless there is cover.
That is not my experience.

When I was growing up I used to play a game with the children of the neighbourhood called "spotlight", in which "it" stood in the middle of a mown acre with a powerful (by the standards of the time) torch (flashlight) that had a narrow beam. The rest of the players would rush to cover behind trees, fences, park benches, uneven spots in the ground etc., and then attempt to creep close enough to rush "it" and touch the swing set in the middle of the park before "it" could illuminate each of use with the beam of light and say the name of the person caught. Even in those unpromising circumstances it was surprisingly effect to simply lie flat in the grass.

In better conditions, as when wearing drab clothing in the scrub, you are much less readily seen when prone among the grown clutter that when standing an possibly silhouetted.
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Old 07-03-2021, 01:43 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Note that all this also means that pigs, dogs, and the like should be harder to spot for their size than humans.
When I was younger, my late wife and I had two dogs. We'd take them out back for them to run in the field of grass. Tall grass.

The smaller dog, a Sheltie (Amber) could only be seen by the way the grass moved. The larger dog, half-shepherd (Chaos), half beagle, was taller than the grass, and could more easily be seen.

I made of tales of Amber, the bane of pigmies everywhere. :)

So yes, if you're close to the ground, I might give a slight penalty to be seen. Of course, since the girls usually barked like mangiacs, spotting them wasn't too difficult.
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Old 07-03-2021, 06:43 AM   #9
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Default Re: Stealth & Posture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
it is not really much different to pot someone standing than someone on the ground, unless there is cover.

So the big difference is that a person flat on the ground may claim more visual cover than someone standing in the same type of ground.

A person in an empty, uniformly illuminated, parking lot is almost as easy to spot crouching or prone, even standing probably.

There are also other considerations, like point of view, someone flat on the ground may be easier to spot from above for example.
I would agree with one caveat. If you are actively looking. If not the probe person likely has a small advantage.
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Old 07-03-2021, 10:32 AM   #10
Rolando
 
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Default Re: Stealth & Posture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
That is not my experience.

When I was growing up I used to play a game with the children of the neighbourhood called "spotlight", in which "it" stood in the middle of a mown acre with a powerful (by the standards of the time) torch (flashlight) that had a narrow beam. The rest of the players would rush to cover behind trees, fences, park benches, uneven spots in the ground etc., and then attempt to creep close enough to rush "it" and touch the swing set in the middle of the park before "it" could illuminate each of use with the beam of light and say the name of the person caught. Even in those unpromising circumstances it was surprisingly effect to simply lie flat in the grass.

In better conditions, as when wearing drab clothing in the scrub, you are much less readily seen when prone among the grown clutter that when standing an possibly silhouetted.
There are many factors in effect in this case.
But I doubt going to the ground alone, not on grass in uneven ground, etc. will be more than a -2 modifier to perception rolls.

This is an RPG, with a GM and the GM have a work to do, consider official modifiers (all of them are suggestions or recommendations) and make a call. If the GM decides to use the already established -2 it will be fine and probably be enough but the GM may declare that as the target is behind some cover there may be harsher penalties due to the prone posture.

In my games I tend to consider the cover and point of view more than posture and posture help more if it allows you to get more or yourself covered, again, lying prone doesn't help you if you are targeted high from above for example. On the other hand I almost always give any official modifiers to my players characters, if only because it makes them feel their actions have some impact.
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