09-25-2019, 11:10 AM | #51 |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
Also, I would call the Charles VI garment Layered Cloth because its heavier than ordinary 14th century clothing, and provides significantly more protection. Its one of the heaviest padded garments I know, but it has oil and rust stains from iron armour, its possible that soldiers without iron armour wore even heavier equipment. In the end, we have to balance different game stats, metagame considerations (ie. not defining an item which is 'just better' than the alternatives in game terms but 'about the same' in real life), consistency with existing rules (Dan had to work with stats from the Basic Set and the firearms experts' definition of DR 70 = 1" RHA) and simplicity.
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09-25-2019, 12:50 PM | #52 | |
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
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Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
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"European Crusaders As noted above, the arms and armor of European Crusaders were very similar to those of their Middle Eastern opponents. The hauberk was shortened to cover the torso only (haubergeon, or “little hauberk”). Under the haubergeon, a padded garment called an aketon covered the torso and arms. The legs and feet were protected by mail leggings (chaussons) and the hands were covered by mail mittens called mufflers that were often attached to the sleeves of the haubergeon. On the head, a mail coife covered the shoulders and part of the upper chest. Over this was a flat-topped helmet (with face visor), a bascinet, and mail aventail." From the table: Common Name: Padded Shirt || Ethnic Name: Aketon || Location: torso, arms || DR 1* Here, the aketon is considered Padded Cloth and is worn under the haubergeon, removing the need for a separate tunic. So this is an error? Last edited by Rasna; 09-25-2019 at 01:16 PM. |
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09-25-2019, 12:52 PM | #53 | |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
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The general drawbacks are that the legs are more mobile than the body, and they just aren't as desirable a target (which GURPS models by giving a x1 wounding modifier for impaling attacks). |
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09-25-2019, 01:08 PM | #54 | ||
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
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Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Rasna; 09-25-2019 at 01:14 PM. |
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09-25-2019, 02:44 PM | #55 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
So I was wrong about the weight of Padded Cloth in GURPS Low Tech, I remembered 4 lbs for the Torso + Groin. Realistically it might be fair to give most low-tech armour 4 pounds for DR 1 on the torso, but in Dungeon Fantasy type settings you want a way to distinguish between many styles of armour, and Dan wanted a type of armour to represent the padded armour in the Basic Set.
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We have two quilted garments from France in the 1200s: one is a quilted coat for a queen, the other is a sleeve for a soldier. Both are made in the same way, with unspun cotton quilted between layers of cloth. Ordinary European clothing from 1300 to 1600 probably has DR 1 (cut) on Torso, Arms, and sometimes Neck. Quote:
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09-25-2019, 02:55 PM | #56 |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
In fact, Low Tech page 103 has a solution "However, DX penalties don’t apply if the total odds of partial armor protecting a hit location are 3 in 6 or less (see the Armor Locations Table, p. 100), or for armor that covers only the head."
I would rule that a breastplate (Chest Front) counts as "3 in 6 or less", so a Light Mail Torso + Arms, Layered Cloth Torso + Arms, and Plate Chest Front would count as two layers of armour. It would give -1 DX.
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09-25-2019, 04:27 PM | #57 |
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
I'd love to know from where you derive your information about kabadions. As far as I know, none survive.
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09-25-2019, 07:01 PM | #58 | |
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
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Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
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09-25-2019, 07:08 PM | #59 | |
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
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Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
Quote:
"A type of garment resembling a coat made of padded cotton opening in the centre front was the kabadion. There were two types of kabadia: (a) for the infantry, reaching down the knees, with long detachable sleeves split between the elbow and the wrist, and (b) for the horse archers, offering protection from the waist down to the lower part of the archer's body and part of the horse." If it was something that "offered protection", then would be something at least somewhat thicker and heavier than GURPS Ordinary Clothing. And, in your own work for GURPS, you classified both the European aketon and the Eastern Roman kabadion as being GURPS Padded Cloth - and note, the point of the discussion isn't if these garments were "6 lbs. for 100% torso armour" in real life because 1) GURPS low-tech armour and items tend to be heavier than their real counterparts, and 2) the granularity and the abstraction of GURPS system doesn't take in account different sizes for the same SM and decimal DR variations. If I'm in error at translating these items as GURPS "Padded Cloth", well, then you did the same thing in your book. To me, for game mechanics, an arming undergarment or overgarment a little heavier than the 3 lbs. Arming Doublet could be something like "Padded Cloth with Expert Tailoring" that count also as Ordinary Clothing, removing the need of a separate tunic: you can see it as being 3.5 lbs. of padding +1.6 lb. of Ordinary Clothing if you like. Worn as standalone armour, it would give DR 1* (-1 DR vs. impaling) or full DR 1*; worn with other armour that is designed to be worn with it, would give full DR 1* and no DX penalty. Note that the total weight is only +27.5% heavier that Light Leather/Winter Clothing designed to be worn with armour, is only +2% heavier than the full DR 1* Heavy Coat, it weight less than half than the Charles heavy pourpoint (which was IRL a thing that weighted 10 to 12 lbs. and that Polydamas, according to his writings, would consider as being "Light Layered Cloth") and does include in its stats a layer of Ordinary Clothing, which alone doesn't give any DR, but here is combined with this padding and the light padding that usually is included in armour stats. For game balance, the result is +1* DR at a fair price (+$300 and +5.1 lbs. for 100% of torso armour); -1 to Fast-Draw rolls, -1 FP lost after an heavy fight. Last edited by Rasna; 09-25-2019 at 07:11 PM. |
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09-25-2019, 09:02 PM | #60 |
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty
If it was light enough to be worn under armour then it didn't provide protection. The padded versions were standlone armour, just like the European ones.
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