[Dungeon Fantasy] Imagining Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Knights

[Michael Thayne]

I've had a lot of fun building barbarians and swashbucklers with their respective Dungeon Fantasy Denizens books... but the wealth of options makes building knights feel like a rather lackluster exercise by comparison. Unfortunately, I doubt we'll get Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Knights any time soon, if ever. So now I'm contemplating trying to put together a sort of fan version of it.

I think the mandate here is to focus on warriors who (1) use heavy kit and (2) aren't particularly outdoorsy. "Heavy kit" can mean a lot of things, though—armor, shields, two-handed weapons, multiple weapons for different situations (like a spear, lance, or polearm plus a sword). "Not particularly outdoorsy" I think is compatible with a few points in outdoors skills (soldiers should know how to make camp), but it shouldn't go to the point of blurring the line between knights on the one hand and barbarians and scouts on the other. Also, we're probably looking at (among other things) 4-6 templates, plus lenses, power-ups, etc. One template might be magic/powers oriented (like the Rage Barbarian or Spell-Thief), but most should be purely mundane fighters.

I don't have a ton of details, but I have some ideas:

• Archery: archery isn't associated with European warrior-aristocrats, but Europe is a bit of an outlier in this respect. I spelled out some details here. Not sure if this should be treated as its own template, or a lens analogous to the "staff-swinging" lens for swashbucklers.
• Gladiators: Could be something of a Knight/Swashbuckler hybrid, but in a very different way than the existing Aristocrat template. Additional advantage options might include Appearance, Charisma, Luck. Current Affairs (Sports), Games (Gladiator), Net (for a retiarius), Performance, Savoir-Faire (Ludus), Sex Appeal, Shield (Buckler). Born War-Leader and the skills it boosts might be toned down or eliminated.
• Watchmen: The closest thing we have to a law-enforcement oriented DF template is the Justicar from that one Pyramid, article, but it's always struck me as more designed for a bounty-hunter than an urban law-enforcer, and arguably is more focused on mental skills than really makes sense for a character that's still primarily supposed to be a warrior. Really defined by mental skills like Area Knowledge, Diplomacy, Intimidation, Leadership, and Streetwise.
• It might be nice to have a lens similar to the "Worldly" lens for swashbucklers, for making knights a bit more cerebral. Actually, such a lens might be all that would be required to make a viable watchman-type.
• Better support for mounted combat. DF1 as written only allows knights to take Riding if they sink 8 points into it, which is a bit excessive. It would be more efficient to package the Combat Riding technique as a power-up.

What else would you want to see?

[adm]

This sounds like an interesting idea, however; have you considered taking submissions, and then try to have SJGames publish it?

[johndallman]

The only DF character I've played is a Knight, and I found myself taking notes on tactics and ways to be effective.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by adm

This sounds like an interesting idea, however; have you considered taking submissions, and then try to have SJGames publish it?

I'm not sure I follow your suggestion—I don't work for SJGames, and I'm not really in any position to "collect submissions".

[adm]

Instead of having ideas publicly posted here, have them emailed to you, if not publicly posted, and SJGames likes what you put together from your submissions, people may pay for the pdf.

[Michael Thayne]

I haven't forgotten about this thread. I've done some poking at the templates vs. lenses issue and I think the Archer—or maybe "Sharpshooter" ("Bowmaster"?), since we already have a 125-point "Archer" template?—needs to be a full template rather than just a lens. Hope to post full write-up tomorrow.

I think "Gladiator" is also a template. "Watchman" might just be a lens? I want at least one other solid template concept, maybe as many as three more. "Magic Knight" is a pretty obvious one—perhaps modeled on the Spell-Thief from Thieves? If anyone has ideas they'd like to see but aren't sure how to execute, I can try to take a crack at it.

[Flowergarden]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

ю"Magic Knight" is a pretty obvious one—perhaps modeled on the Spell-Thief from Thieves?

I never played DF, but what the difference between eldritch knight and magic knight?

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Flowergarden

I never played DF, but what the difference between eldritch knight and magic knight?

The Eldritch Knight template from Pyramid relies on imbuements, a concept that feels like it got very little support outside Pyramid. At this point continuing to try to make it a thing I think would feel incongruous with what other Dungeon Fantasy Denizens books have done. I'm envisioning the Magic Knight as being spell-and-power focused, though I admit I'm not quite sure what spells and what powers.

[Flowergarden]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

The Eldritch Knight template from Pyramid relies on imbuements, a concept that feels like it got very little support outside Pyramid. At this point continuing to try to make it a thing I think would feel incongruous with what other Dungeon Fantasy Denizens books have done. I'm envisioning the Magic Knight as being spell-and-power focused, though I admit I'm not quite sure what spells and what powers.

Oh,make sense.
Probably self buffs (stat buffs, movement, shields), weapon and armor buffs(sharpness, additional DR, flaming armor, elemental weapons, affect insubstantial), debuffs. Something that enhances the knight. Don't know about buffing other people, it's other classes niche.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

The Eldritch Knight template from Pyramid relies on imbuements, a concept that feels like it got very little support outside Pyramid. At this point continuing to try to make it a thing I think would feel incongruous with what other Dungeon Fantasy Denizens books have done. I'm envisioning the Magic Knight as being spell-and-power focused, though I admit I'm not quite sure what spells and what powers.

The key thing that makes the Eldritch Knight work is DX-based imbuement skills. DF3 The Next Level, p. 29 has the Knight-Wizard lens, and doesn't try to claim it's a good idea.

Making a knight into an effective magician will need magic that's either DX-based, or boosted by Born War-Leader. Either requires it to be quite specialised. That may well be a good thing, but it needs to get the specialisation right.