Ritual Magic issue

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by maximara

Also GURPS 4e Power-Ups 7 explains "This is a minimalist wildcard as written. The GM might add Airshipman, Free Fall, Meteorology, Navigation (Air, Hyperspace, and Space), Parachuting, Spacer, and Vacc Suit – plus Electronics Operation (any) for vehicular systems, Freight Handling for cargos, and Mechanic for repairs, where air or space vehicles are involved – as befits the setting."

This what I meant by later works clarifying things. Supers was just too brief with what Pilot! could cover while Power-Ups 7 shows just how deep Pilot! could be GM willing and it logically follows what the Basic Set said.

That's not a clarification, that's presenting additional options. Given Power-Ups 7, you cannot list for me the definitive Pilot! skill. There isn't one. There are options.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by maximara

You do know that later books can do revisions, clarifications, and-or have conflicts to the Basic Set rules, right?

If you are reaching out beyond the rules presented in Basic for your question it is incumbent upon you to name the books you are drawing from. It is not my responsibility to read your mind and know what rules you are questioning... especially when you specifically name one optional rule from one book.




It's also common courtesy to toss in a few page numbers so people don't have to Alt-F a sentence and pray you quoted it accurately.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

By calling for rules in supplements to override what's in the Basic Set, you are actually asking for the third edition problem to come back: you have to have all the supplements with "new discoveries" in order to do anything. Want to use ritual magic in your game? Can't do it without GURPS Magic, because that clarified what a prerequisite is. That's the third edition problem all over again.

Can't we? Why not? I mean including prerequisites that aren't spells is clearly the right call, and I say that as someone who makes spell trees with things like mathematics, lucid dreaming and meditation in them. But one level more or less hardly makes much of a difference.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Can't we? Why not? I mean including prerequisites that aren't spells is clearly the right call, and I say that as someone who makes spell trees with things like mathematics, lucid dreaming and meditation in them. But one level more or less hardly makes much of a difference.

I was illustrating the problem with that approach, not advocating for it.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Hide

Prerequisites such as having magery 1+, I would say.

Which as I pointed out before magery is not counted, even in GURPS Magic. (Ignore Fire's is on pg 229)

In fact, required non magic skills and advantages are not part of the Prerequisite Count.

Great Haste, for example has Prerequisites Magery 1 and Haste but only a Prerequisite Count of 1 (not 2).

Similarly, Beast-Soother has Persuasion or Animal Empathy advantage as its Prerequisites; but only a Prerequisite Count of 0 (not 1)

Halt Aging is the most obvious as it states its Prerequisites are Magery and 8 Healing spells but its Prerequisite Count is 8 (not 9).

If you slug through the list you will find this is true for every spell's Prerequisite count. So either Magic clarified or changed what was meant in the Basic Set by "Prerequisite" with regards to Ritual Magic.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by maximara

If you slug through the list you will find this is true for every spell's Prerequisite count. So either Magic clarified or changed what was meant in the Basic Set by "Prerequisite" with regards to Ritual Magic.

It added a detail that is not present in the Basic Set. It doesn't say it's clarifying anything. If clarification was the intention, the intent to clarify is as vague as the original rule in the Basic Set.

The Basic Set is a relatively low-resolution set of rules. It doesn't go into great detail on a lot of topics. That doesn't mean there's a higher resolution lurking beneath the surface where you can't see it that powers your game.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

If you are reaching out beyond the rules presented in Basic for your question it is incumbent upon you to name the books you are drawing from. It is not my responsibility to read your mind and know what rules you are questioning... especially when you specifically name one optional rule from one book.

It's also common courtesy to toss in a few page numbers so people don't have to Alt-F a sentence and pray you quoted it accurately.

Considering the information you snipped in the post you quoted contains the information you said I should have provided (ie the books and page numbers) which I have restored and bolded for everyone's convenience you are not helping your case. Don't go running to some other post I made as I am referring exclusively to the post you quoted from.

You do known that things like "B89" are short for "Basic Set page 89" and that something that starts out with "GURPS Thaumatology" and ends with "pg 75" means "GURPS Thaumatology pg 75", right?

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

It added a detail that is not present in the Basic Set. It doesn't say it's clarifying anything.

Conversely it doesn't say it isn't clarifying anything. That door swings both ways.

Remember what Bill Stoddard points out (in this very thread in fact):

Originally Posted by whswhs

Actually, that's a bit too simple. Let me comment on this from the perspective of an author of GURPS supplements.

When I write a supplement, I sometimes discuss a trait or a rule from the Basic Set, and say, "Here is what this actually means." That is not meant to be changing a rule; it's meant to be making it clear[er] what an existing rule means.

I sometimes say, "This rule in the Basic Set leads to problems; here is a variant rule that clears them up." For example, in Powers: The Weird and Template Toolkit 2: Races, I include a variant rule for the effects of high and low gravity. This produces exactly the same results for people native to Earth-normal gravity, but it works differently for a Martian on Jupiter or the reverse.

I sometimes say, "Here's an alterative rule." This is definitely changing a rule, and using it is entirely optional.

Now Mr Stoddard doesn't always use those exact words but IMHO it is clear from the tone in a book which way he is going. Mr Stoddard has had a hand in (even if it is only additional material) the Basic Set, Fantasy, Thaumatology, and Power ups 7. When a rule is optional it is clearly noted as such and if it has problems being read a certain way that is noted as well such as with regards to Wildcard Magery default configuration on GURPS Thaumatology pg 75 with the "This idea may not be especially balanced, but it is quick and usable, and preserves the distinctions between different wizards." comment.

Originally Posted by whswhs

On the other hand, Magery 1+ is just a specialized Talent, and you never NEED a Talent to learn one of the skills it covers.

Now this raises even more questions. If a talent (Magery 1+ being a specialized Talent) is never needed to learn one of the skills it covers (spells in this case) then what exactly is meant by Magery 1+ as a Prerequisite for a mage in low and normal mana areas? They can't learn it? They can't cast it unless they go to a high or very high mana area?

We know that per Power Investiture "clerical spells do not have prerequisites." (B77) but one has to go to GURPS Thaumatology pg 67 to find out that means no spell prerequisites but that doesn't quite line up with the prerequisite count given in Magic as advantages (or not having a certain disadvantage) are not part of the counts.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by maximara

Conversely it doesn't say it isn't clarifying anything. That door swings both ways.

So you admit that you're not certain of your position. ;)

When a rule is optional it is clearly noted as such

When a rule is optional in the context of being a supplemental rule it is noted as such. If a rule in a supplement is not said to be optional that in no way means that the rule is non-optional through all of GURPS. It just means that rule is non-optional when using that supplement.

(As always, don't read "non-optional" as "you can't change the rules.")

GURPS Magic presents a non-optional rule that says only actual spells are counted toward the prerequisite count for ritual magic, and then presents an explicitly optional rule for counting things other than spells. These non-optional and optional rules do not apply to the ritual magic paragraphs in the Basic Set; they apply to the explanation of ritual magic in GURPS Magic.

These rules are not simulations. There is no real ritual magic that GURPS is trying to accurately model. It works however you want it to work. If one book says one thing and another book says another thing, then it works one way if you're using the one book and another way if you're using the other book. GURPS tries to keep its rules consistent, but that's not to say you can't have different levels of resolution for different subsystems.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

(As always, don't read "non-optional" as "you can't change the rules.")

The GM rules clause is IMHO one of those things that has to be used very very carefully. I saw it go horribly too wrong many times in D&D because the GM didn't think over the ramification of changing rule x. GURPS is at the end of a the day a System and is more sensitive to changes to a particular rule change then D&D was.

This is partly why GURPS Supers first and second editions were such a disaster - it seemed as if little if any thought was given to how those new rules would change things due to the Universal dynamic of GURPS. A GURPS Magic mage build on 400 points was insane in a super setting and the books gave you next to no information on how to deal with it.

It was like what happened in D&D with the Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures. Everything was balanced within the books but the moment you tried to integrate them into the rest of the psudo system D&D had things went pear shaped in a hurry.