[High-Tech] Military Equipment: Global War on Terror edition

[fula farbrorn]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Edit: I've read a couple of studies, two manuals for Bofors guns and compared the explosive loads for several already statted grenades, cannon rounds, mortar bombs and mines. There actually are 40mm Bofors HE rounds that might get 3d cr ex [4d], but getting fragments that damaging usually requires more explosive filler, and there are ones with enough explosive to get 6d+2 cr ex, the explosive damage David Pulver gives the modern Bofors HE-AB. A lot depends on how much being encased in steel reduces explosive damage, as looking over other stats, a heavy fragmenting sleeve or thick casing seems to reduce the explosive damage by up to a third.

That in mind, the worst performing HE warhead 40x311mm would get 3d cr ex [2d] if we were pessimistic and the best performing modern one 6d+2 cr ex [2d] if it was prioritizing explosive power and... I guess somewhere around 4d cr ex [4d] with great design for lots of big fragments. 6d cr ex [4d] is something that I could see as a really optimistic stat line, but if I was going to sign off on that, I'd need to find some unambigious evidence that an individual 40mm HE round from a Bofors gun was found to be more effective as an anti-personnel weapon than 40mm grenades or 60mm mortar rounds.

The rest is fine. Well, the Range looks weird, only because GURPS usually goes with 1/2D Range which has nothing to do with actual 1/2D Range, and this might actually be an accurate number, at least if we were to assume a projectile equally aerodynamic as a good long-range rifle bullet. Of course, no one will be using the gun at such long ranges and, in fact, AA rounds might be set to explode at a given height anyway.

Are you looking at the 40mm PFHE shells that use steel or tungsten balls for fragmentation ? or are you looking at the APHE ?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by fula farbrorn

Are you looking at the 40mm PFHE shells that use steel or tungsten balls for fragmentation ? or are you looking at the APHE ?

All of the above, from original Swedish 1930s ammunition, through various WWII and later HE-AB, APHEX or SAPHE rounds, with and without tracer and incendiaries, to modern PFHE rounds. Which is why I mentioned various stats being possible depending on warheads, with 6d cr ex [4d] being an optimistic, but perhaps possible, Damage for the best modern anti-personnel rounds.

Truthfully, I don't know what ammo will be used when these Bofors guns appear in my campaign, which takes place in early 1991, with the guns in the possession of a PMC force contracted to oil and gas companies in Angola. They'd be unable to buy the newest and best ammunition directly from the manufacturer, unless they went through the whole legal process of having Angola do so, with valid end-user certificates. They might still have lawyers working on that, and, in the meantime buying ammo from less-legitimate cources on the grey market.

I should find out if IMI or another Israeli company ever made 40×311mmB Bofors ammo, and, if so, what kind of shells. Otherwise, they'd probably buy 46+ year old stored ammo, from the imploding Soviet Union or other Warsaw Pact countries. Or, if they're lucky, arms manufacturers in one or more of Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania or Yugoslavia might have made some ammo long after WWII.

I know British sailors were still shooting WWII stocks of 40x311mmB Bofors in the 1980s and Ukranians are doing so right now. So, we know that old ammo still works (at least enough to be better than nothing) and new ammunition at acceptable prices might have been hard to get politically due to the Cold War, it might just have been too expensive when enough old stocks still remained, or maybe only the Swedes and Americans make new rounds (at ridiculous prices).

Icelandic Coast Guard still mount Bofors 40mm L/60 guns, I could try finding out, through police contacts, where the Coast Guard sources ammo. As they hardly ever fire, a plausible enougn answer might be, "We haven't yet run out of the free surplus ammo we got with the gun when the Norwegians upgraded to more modern 40mm autocannon."

[fula farbrorn]

Originally Posted by Icelander

All of the above, from original Swedish 1930s ammunition, through various WWII and later HE-AB, APHEX or SAPHE rounds, with and without tracer and incendiaries, to modern PFHE rounds. Which is why I mentioned various stats being possible depending on warheads, with 6d cr ex [4d] being an optimistic, but perhaps possible, Damage for the best modern anti-personnel rounds.

Truthfully, I don't know what ammo will be used when these Bofors guns appear in my campaign, which takes place in early 1991, with the guns in the possession of a PMC force contracted to oil and gas companies in Angola. They'd be unable to buy the newest and best ammunition directly from the manufacturer, unless they went through the whole legal process of having Angola do so, with valid end-user certificates. They might still have lawyers working on that, and, in the meantime buying ammo from less-legitimate cources on the grey market.

I should find out if IMI or another Israeli company ever made 40×311mmB Bofors ammo, and, if so, what kind of shells. Otherwise, they'd probably buy 46+ year old stored ammo, from the imploding Soviet Union or other Warsaw Pact countries. Or, if they're lucky, arms manufacturers in one or more of Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania or Yugoslavia might have made some ammo long after WWII.

I know British sailors were still shooting WWII stocks of 40x311mmB Bofors in the 1980s and Ukranians are doing so right now. So, we know that old ammo still works (at least enough to be better than nothing) and new ammunition at acceptable prices might have been hard to get politically due to the Cold War, it might just have been too expensive when enough old stocks still remained, or maybe only the Swedes and Americans make new rounds (at ridiculous prices).

Icelandic Coast Guard still mount Bofors 40mm L/60 guns, I could try finding out, through police contacts, where the Coast Guard sources ammo. As they hardly ever fire, a plausible enougn answer might be, "We haven't yet run out of the free surplus ammo we got with the gun when the Norwegians upgraded to more modern 40mm autocannon."

Balkan Novotech make the ammo, but why buy it from them, when several countries in africa used or are still using the L/60 ? and it should be easier to buy the ammo from say liberia ? (in timeline having a military coup going on, one that might want some extra money maybe ?)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by fula farbrorn

Balkan Novotech make the ammo, but why buy it from them, when several countries in africa used or are still using the L/60 ? and it should be easier to buy the ammo from say liberia ? (in timeline having a military coup going on, one that might want some extra money maybe ?)

Balkan Novoteh was founded in 2011, so they are not an option if you are shopping in 1990-1991.

Liberia might have some WWII-vintage 40x311mmB Bofors ammo, but it might have been stored somewhere hot and humid, like much of Liberia, and Charles Taylor was famously unscrupulous, untrustworthy and difficult to do business with. He also had more money than he had arms and ordnance, so if he sold anything potentially militarily useful, he'd sell the most doubtful ammo first, lie about the storage conditions, and charge exorbitant prices.

I'm aware that you can buy old and unreliable ammunition in some African countries. I just don't think a professional PMC outfit, with skilled logistics people, would want ammo that is a risk to their own side. Buying from former Warsaw Pact countries has the advantage that during 1990-1991, few of them know who will be in charge next year, next month or even next week. And a lot of soldiers and armament factory workers are no longer being paid, but still have access to various arms and ordnance.

So, it's a buyer's market over there.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

The SMAW (Mk 153) is not covered, but it appears to be very similar to the Carl Gustaf. (This is the piece of extrapolation in this post I'm least certain of, so I welcome correction.)

Has anyone come up with good stats for these?

More specifically, for the High-Explosive Follow-Through (HEFT) round, which works something like a tandem round, except that instead of being designed to defeat explosive reactive armour, it's designed to blow a hole in a house or a bunker, and the smaller-caliber HE round, with anti-personnel fragmentation, is designed to kill defenders inside the house or bunker.

I realize that I make the first attack a normal 6dxn(10) HEAT, significantly less effective than a rocket of the same weight devoted solely to HEAT would be, and then the second attack is a follow-through HE of 6d*n cr ex [4d (or whatever the fragments turn out to do)]. On the other hand, I'm lacking real-world information on the performance of these rounds and/or the amount and type of explosive in each part, not to mention the fragments of the HE part.

So, in order to get an idea of how effective the shaped-charge penetrator is and roughly equivalent to what munition the smaller HE part would be, I need more data on the IMI B-300 and/or the McDonnell Douglas Mk 153 SMAW based on it. Or a GURPS writeup someone has done with such data, that would also be really cool.