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Old 05-09-2021, 01:00 AM   #1
Calvin
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Calgary
Default Reloading breechloaders in a single second with one weird trick. Historians hate him!

While preparing to play in a TL4 game I took a look at what my options were with firearms to see if I could make them viable as a primary weapon. What I found may shock you.

The ideal TL4 gun, assuming you care most about rate of fire, is the Breechloading Carbine. There's no practical reason the damage couldn't be higher, I've used the Ballistic Spreadsheet for this sort of thing before, but damage doesn't matter. We care only about rate of fire, and for TL4, that mostly means reloading time.
  1. The base reload time of a breechloader is 10 seconds.
  2. Paper cartridges cut the base reload time in half, leaving you at 5 seconds.
  3. Fast-Draw can shave off another second, leaving you at 4 seconds.
  4. The Quick Reload perk applies after Fast-Draw and reduces this time by a further 25%, with a minimum reduction of one second. This gives you a final time to reload of 3 seconds.

So with this method you get one shot every four seconds, or every five seconds if you aim. This isn't terrible, and puts you one second ahead of the sort of crossbows most players consider. Though The Deadly Spring can screw with that comparison.

But what if, instead of doing things the right way, you did them the wrong way? Take this alternate example:
  1. The base reload time of a breechloader is 10 seconds.
  2. Fast-Draw reduces this to 8 seconds.
  3. The Quick Reload perk applies after Fast-Draw and reduces this time by a further 25%. This brings us to 6 seconds.
  4. Use powder in pre-measured flasks. This cuts 5 seconds off the final reloading time and brings us to a single second reload.

This gives you a shot every two seconds, or every three seconds if you aim.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
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Old 05-09-2021, 02:28 AM   #2
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Reloading breechloaders in a single second with one weird trick. Historians hate

I don't think that you can use loose-ammunition loading modifiers for a breech-loader. Is it even possible to load with loose ammo?
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Old 05-09-2021, 02:40 AM   #3
Calvin
 
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Default Re: Reloading breechloaders in a single second with one weird trick. Historians hate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I don't think that you can use loose-ammunition loading modifiers for a breech-loader. Is it even possible to load with loose ammo?
Yeah, original breechloading rifles did use loose ammo. Granted, mostly in a paper case, but it wasn't a requirement.
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Old 05-09-2021, 08:19 AM   #4
johndallman
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Default Re: Reloading breechloaders in a single second with one weird trick. Historians hate

I think the correct computation is:

Basic time, 10 seconds, or 8 seconds with a successful Fast-Draw roll, as noted under the specific weapon. Paper cartridges halve basic time, so 5 or 4 seconds. Quick-Reload perk takes a further second off, so 4 or 3 seconds. The full set of steps is:
  1. Lower and open the gun
  2. Fast-draw the cartridge.
  3. Tear open the cartridge and prime the pan.
  4. Insert the cartridge.
  5. Close the gun.
  6. Wind ("span") the wheellock.
  7. Ready the gun, by bringing it back up to the firing position.

There are some safety issues with working this fast. You've had to tear the cartridge open. Failing the Fast-Draw roll risks loosing the powder, and if there are hot embers in the chamber from the previous shot, spilt powder may ignite.
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Old 05-09-2021, 11:50 AM   #5
transmetahuman
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Default Re: Reloading breechloaders in a single second with one weird trick. Historians hate

Just ducking in to rain applause on that brilliant header. 🤣
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Old 05-09-2021, 12:25 PM   #6
The Colonel
 
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Default Re: Reloading breechloaders in a single second with one weird trick. Historians hate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
Yeah, original breechloading rifles did use loose ammo. Granted, mostly in a paper case, but it wasn't a requirement.
Weren't most historical breech loaders screw-threaded? Might need more than one second to wind them in and out if you expect them to obturate...
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Old 05-09-2021, 12:53 PM   #7
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Reloading breechloaders in a single second with one weird trick. Historians hate

Have you compared the historical option of wearing two or three pairs of self-igniting pistols on your chest and Fast Drawing them as you fire them? You wear them on a lanyard so you don't lose the empty ones you drop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
The ideal TL4 gun, assuming you care most about rate of fire, is the Breechloading Carbine. There's no practical reason the damage couldn't be higher
the higher the pressure (~ damage, if calibre and bore length stay the same), the more likely jets of superheated gasses or the whole breechblock are to fly into your face or chest. Retaining mechanisms varied from 'a wedge' to hand-cut screws, but without obdurating cartridges or precision engineering its hard to make sure all the gasses fly towards the enemy.

Edit: here is the original gun https://collections.royalarmouries.o...bject-264.html Keep in mind that this was a toy for a king.
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Last edited by Polydamas; 05-09-2021 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 05-09-2021, 01:55 PM   #8
ravenfish
 
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Default Re: Reloading breechloaders in a single second with one weird trick. Historians hate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Keep in mind that this was a toy for a king.
Should that imply the cost ought to be rather higher than Low-Tech gives? A high cost would adequately explain why similar pieces did not see use on the battlefield, despite a rate-of-fire that is impressive even without the min-maxing discussed in this thread.
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Old 05-09-2021, 04:01 PM   #9
Sam Baughn
 
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Default Re: Reloading breechloaders in a single second with one weird trick. Historians hate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
the higher the pressure (~ damage, if calibre and bore length stay the same), the more likely jets of superheated gasses or the whole breechblock are to fly into your face or chest. Retaining mechanisms varied from 'a wedge' to hand-cut screws, but without obdurating cartridges or precision engineering its hard to make sure all the gasses fly towards the enemy.
As I understand it, most late-medieval / early early-modern breechloaders tended towards the 'wedge' end of the retaining mechanism spectrum, with a retaining pin being typical for breechloading cannon. Also, the fit between parts not only started fairly bad but got worse when hot, corrosive gas and debris was forced into the space between them (i.e. every time the gun was fired). Breechloading artillery was often limited to low-density stone projectiles (in English, they were called perriers, or 'stone throwers'), which could be launched with a light charge of powder. If I remember right, Ian Hogg's A History of Artillery goes into the issues at some length.
On the other hand, revolvers have a small gap between chamber and barrel and generally work OK. I believe that revolver rifles and shotguns were unpopular due to putting that gap closer to the user's face and pushing more gas through it though, so there are obviously limits.
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Old 05-09-2021, 04:19 PM   #10
Calvin
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Default Re: Reloading breechloaders in a single second with one weird trick. Historians hate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Have you compared the historical option of wearing two or three pairs of self-igniting pistols on your chest and Fast Drawing them as you fire them? You wear them on a lanyard so you don't lose the empty ones you drop.


the higher the pressure (~ damage, if calibre and bore length stay the same), the more likely jets of superheated gasses or the whole breechblock are to fly into your face or chest. Retaining mechanisms varied from 'a wedge' to hand-cut screws, but without obdurating cartridges or precision engineering its hard to make sure all the gasses fly towards the enemy.

Edit: here is the original gun https://collections.royalarmouries.o...bject-264.html Keep in mind that this was a toy for a king.
True, but the Ballistic Spreadsheet lets you account for that sort of thing. Chamber pressure could probaly be increased a bit, inline with existing rules for this sort of thing, but you wouldn't leave calibre and barrel length the same for exactly the reasons you outline.

Quote:
I think the correct computation is:

Basic time, 10 seconds, or 8 seconds with a successful Fast-Draw roll, as noted under the specific weapon. Paper cartridges halve basic time, so 5 or 4 seconds. Quick-Reload perk takes a further second off, so 4 or 3 seconds.
Isn't that exactly the figure I arrive at for the paper cartridge example? Granted, I'm assuming successes on the relevant rolls, while you include the figures for a failed Fast-Draw.
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