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Old 06-17-2021, 11:50 AM   #11
Prince Charon
 
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Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

There's a fairly wide gap between 'attack' and 'refuse to associate with,' though.

In general, I suggest that the average bigot probably has quirk-level Intolerance (which I might put on elvish and dwarvish templates toward each other if I were imitating Tolkien), and agree that the actual disad as written should be reserved for the seriously nasty ones.
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Old 06-17-2021, 02:02 PM   #12
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Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

Intolerance is weird because (a) it's the only disad that calls for a PC to make a reaction roll, and (b) it overrides the definitions of reaction rolls.
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Old 06-18-2021, 05:53 AM   #13
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Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
In general, I suggest that the average bigot probably has quirk-level Intolerance (which I might put on elvish and dwarvish templates toward each other if I were imitating Tolkien), and agree that the actual disad as written should be reserved for the seriously nasty ones.
There are two things in the RAW that could be called quirk-level Intolerance. One is full on Intolerance, but only of a narrowly defined group not likely to be encountered. The other is Chauvinism. But Chauvinism is defined as having much less drastic effects; canonically, it doesn't impose negative reactions at all, but simply means that you always pay attention to whether someone belongs to the outgroup, whatever it is.

There's certainly something of a gap between that and RAW Intolerance. I can see three ways to narrow it:

1. Define Chauvinism up to include actual negative behavior.

2. Define Intolerance down to include less drastic negative reactions than "attack or refuse to associate with."

3. Introduce an intermediate level, perhaps for half value (-5 if general, -2 for one specific group). It could provide for no more than a -1 modifier, perhaps, and negative reactions would not be exaggerated beyond those normally seen for a given reaction.

Note, by the way, that PCs are never compelled to make reaction rolls. However, the GM might provide that the -3 (or -1) modifier acts as a skill penalty in dealing with the targets of the Intolerance.
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Old 06-18-2021, 12:40 PM   #14
Micah Davis
 
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Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
There are two things in the RAW that could be called quirk-level Intolerance. One is full on Intolerance, but only of a narrowly defined group not likely to be encountered. The other is Chauvinism. But Chauvinism is defined as having much less drastic effects; canonically, it doesn't impose negative reactions at all, but simply means that you always pay attention to whether someone belongs to the outgroup, whatever it is.
Eh, just put it down as “Dislikes Orcs.” Maybe slap on an odious personal habit like “Mocks Orcish Culture” and slap on an accessibility “Orcs and Orc Friendly People” [-3 or -6]. Intolerance, free hanging, is basically separatist. You can build clerics of some conservative religious sects with Intolerance (Women) and it just be a “I shouldn’t associate with women.” But if you want, say, a Klansmen or Gestapo member you probably need some other disadvantages - And you may be able to do without Intolerance altogether

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Note, by the way, that PCs are never compelled to make reaction rolls.
Is this the case? I didn’t see it in a quick once over of the Campaigns guide but I may have missed it.
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Old 06-19-2021, 07:11 AM   #15
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

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Originally Posted by Micah Davis View Post
Is {PCs not making reaction rolls} the case?
See the first section of "Reaction Rolls" on B494.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B494
When the PCs meet an NPC whose reaction to them is not predetermined (see below), the GM makes a “reaction roll” on 3d.
The whole section talks about ways PCs can get better results from NPC rules, including substituting Influence rolls. But nowhere does it mention a player rolling a reaction for a PC and how players might make that sort of roll better. This point of view is backed up by the reference to B494 under Influence Rolls:

Quote:
Originally Posted by B359
See Reaction Rolls (p. 494) for more on NPC reactions
Explicitly not PCs, that is, only NPCs. This sentiment is echoed again at the start of the actual Reaction Table on B559, which is labeled "NPC Reactions", the extra word serving only to exclude PCs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B559
When the PCs meet an NPC whose reaction to them is not predetermined, the GM can opt to make a “reaction roll” on 3d.
Later, under "General Reactions",
Quote:
Originally Posted by B561
Make this roll to see, in general, how any NPC feels about the PCs.
You'll also notice that references to reaction rolls are phrased similar to "the GM rolls" -- for the NPCs, of course. That's not a special case where the GM rolls for the players; it's because only NPCs are making reaction rolls, and the GM is responsible for making all the rolls for NPCs.

Since we're talking about Intolerance, see a bit further down under "Racial or national biases":

Quote:
Originally Posted by B494
... take the form of a Social Stigma disadvantage for the PC or an Intolerance disadvantage on the part of the NPC
Notice the asymmetry there. Social Stigma of a PC affects a reaction roll, because that penalty is to how NPCs react to the character with the Disad. Intolerance held by an NPC affects a reaction roll, because that Disad also affects how the holder reacts to others -- in this case, a PC. But the mirror cases aren't mentioned -- an Intolerant PC "reacting" to an NPC, or a PC "reacting" to an NPC with a Social Stigma aren't even covered by the quoted bit. The rule is silent in those cases, leaving it up to the player.
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Old 06-19-2021, 08:04 AM   #16
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
See the first section of "Reaction Rolls" on B494.

The whole section talks about ways PCs can get better results from NPC rules, including substituting Influence rolls. But nowhere does it mention a player rolling a reaction for a PC and how players might make that sort of roll better. This point of view is backed up by the reference to B494 under Influence Rolls:

Explicitly not PCs, that is, only NPCs. This sentiment is echoed again at the start of the actual Reaction Table on B559, which is labeled "NPC Reactions", the extra word serving only to exclude PCs.

Later, under "General Reactions",
You'll also notice that references to reaction rolls are phrased similar to "the GM rolls" -- for the NPCs, of course. That's not a special case where the GM rolls for the players; it's because only NPCs are making reaction rolls, and the GM is responsible for making all the rolls for NPCs.

Since we're talking about Intolerance, see a bit further down under "Racial or national biases":

Notice the asymmetry there. Social Stigma of a PC affects a reaction roll, because that penalty is to how NPCs react to the character with the Disad. Intolerance held by an NPC affects a reaction roll, because that Disad also affects how the holder reacts to others -- in this case, a PC. But the mirror cases aren't mentioned -- an Intolerant PC "reacting" to an NPC, or a PC "reacting" to an NPC with a Social Stigma aren't even covered by the quoted bit. The rule is silent in those cases, leaving it up to the player.
Thank you for sorting all of that out.

It seems to me that the simplest explanation for Intolerance is that it's normally taken as an NPC disadvantage—a way of explaining the behavior of insular people or races, from elves to ancient Greeks to imperial Chinese officials. The only thing in the RAW that directly affects PCs is the reaction penalty of -1 to -3 for victims of their intolerance. Though I think applying a -3 penalty to some skills (for example, Savoir-Faire or Teaching) could be appropriate.
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Old 06-20-2021, 10:41 PM   #17
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Intolerance's Pricing System is Weird

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
It seems to me that the simplest explanation for Intolerance is that it's normally taken as an NPC disadvantage
In a few cases, it's appropriate for anti-heroic or even heroic PCs, depending on the hated group and how the player and the GM wish to interpret it. For example, Intolerance (Orcs, Nazis, or Necromancers) suits various "assassin" or "bounty hunter" type characters.

One weakness with RAW Intolerance is the fact that it only considers the relative Size and Frequency of Appearance of the hated group, not its power. Being a noble who hates anarchists is far less dangerous than being an anarchist who hates nobles!

The simple solution is to treat powerful or exceptionally dangerous groups as being one level more common than they actually are. For example, mages might be a rarely encountered group (-1 point) in a low fantasy game, but their power makes them effectively "Commonly Encountered" for -5 points. Police might be "commonly encountered" in a game set in a cyberpunk dictatorship, but their power and dangerousness boosts their effective level to "Everyone" for -10 points.

Conversely, reduce the effective level for common but relatively harmless or powerless groups. For example, Intolerance (Street People) is normally worth -5 points, but since the group you hate usually isn't in a position to strike back the disadvantage is worth just -1 point.
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