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Old 06-09-2021, 04:50 PM   #31
maximara
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Default Re: Hexes, real world measurements, and GURPS reality

[QUOTE=Varyon;2383390]Errr... no? SSR roughly follows that equation, but just sets things somewhere close where the numbers aren't a mess, and then when you actually use the table, you round up to the nearest SSR - 32 yards is -8 Range, while the equation put it at around -7.03 (which would round to -7).

Here is the original post (note the author):
Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Speed/Range formula: 2 - 6*log(Distance in Yards)

Size formula: 6*log(length in yards) - 2

Round to nearest integer.
Effectively this throws out the "If size falls between two values, base SM on the next-highest size." and "If the range falls between two values, use the higher; e.g., treat 8 yards as 10 yards" in the basic set.
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Old 06-09-2021, 05:10 PM   #32
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Default Re: Hexes, real world measurements, and GURPS reality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Easy enough to houserule if you want it to round the other way.

But it does create the problem that you can't cast an area spell covering 1 hex. (Since the first area increment, 1 yard radius, base FP cost, results in the 7-hex megahex, projecting that sequence the other way to get a 1 hex area, you'd have to cast a 0-yard radius spell at 0 increments for 0 * base FP cost. That results in an infinite increase in actual error over calculated area, which is of course a vastly larger error from mapping to hexes than the error you get by rounding down. If you're concerned about the math and unfairly losing area, that is.) Better arbitrarily plug that hole by also houseruling that a 1 hex area costs, oh, 0.5 * base FP cost for a 0.5 yard radius to fit inside that hex. Not longer a smooth progression, but there we are.
Actually Magic kind of addresses this: "Area spells with a fractional base cost, such as 1/2 or 1/10, cost a minimum of one energy point. A few Area spells specify a minimum cost, which you must always pay, even if it is larger than the base cost multiplied by the desired radius." pg 11

Simply ignore "base" in the above and just as casing Rain on a 1 hex costs you 1 FP (same as it covering 10 hexes) than having an area spell cover only one hex will cost 1 FP.
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Old 06-09-2021, 06:57 PM   #33
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Default Re: Hexes, real world measurements, and GURPS reality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Easy enough to houserule if you want it to round the other way.

But it does create the problem that you can't cast an area spell covering 1 hex. (Since the first area increment, 1 yard radius, base FP cost, results in the 7-hex megahex, projecting that sequence the other way to get a 1 hex area, you'd have to cast a 0-yard radius spell at 0 increments for 0 * base FP cost. That results in an infinite increase in actual error over calculated area, which is of course a vastly larger error from mapping to hexes than the error you get by rounding down. If you're concerned about the math and unfairly losing area, that is.) Better arbitrarily plug that hole by also houseruling that a 1 hex area costs, oh, 0.5 * base FP cost for a 0.5 yard radius to fit inside that hex. Not longer a smooth progression, but there we are.
I'm a little confused, so I apologize for asking for a clarification of your intent...

Are you saying that a radius 1 spell contains the single hex that is the center of "effect" plus all surrounding adjacent hexes, or are you saying that the single radius spell is just the single "center" hex of effect, with the surrounding 6 hexes having zero effect?

I went directly to pages 10 of GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition (for GURPS 3e) and page 13 of GURPS MAGIC for 4e. In each instance, there is an accompanying diagram that shows the center hex filled with the number 1, the next ring of hexes (the 6 adjacent hexes to the hex labeled as 1) with 2's, and each successive ring with 3 and 4 for purposes of illustrating a 1 hex radius spell, a 2 hex radius spell, a 3 hex radius spell, and a 4 hex radius spell. This illustration is effectively the same in both editions of GURPS MAGIC for area spells.

GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition says this:

"The area of effect of an area spell is a circle. The size of the circle depends on the energy put into the spell. (1) above is a single “ring” of hexes (i.e., 1 hex). Cost to cast the spell in this area is equal to base cost. (2) is an area equal to two rings of hexes — the center, and the ring around it. Cost to cast here is double base cost. ("

GURPS MAGIC for 4e however, says this:

"Area Spells on a Battle Map Represent Area spells on a battle map as follows.
The area of effect of a spell cast over a one-yard radius is a single hex. The
area of effect of a spell cast over a two-yard radius is a central hex and all adjacent hexes. The area of effect of a spell cast over a three yard radius is a central two-yard area of effect plus the ring of hexes adjacent to that. And so
on, building up larger areas by annexing successive rings of hexes.
"

Here we have both yard and hex used interchangeably in the same paragraph/box.
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Old 06-09-2021, 10:04 PM   #34
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Default Re: Hexes, real world measurements, and GURPS reality

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
I'm a little confused, so I apologize for asking for a clarification of your intent...

Are you saying that a radius 1 spell contains the single hex that is the center of "effect" plus all surrounding adjacent hexes, or are you saying that the single radius spell is just the single "center" hex of effect, with the surrounding 6 hexes having zero effect?

I went directly to pages 10 of GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition (for GURPS 3e) and page 13 of GURPS MAGIC for 4e. In each instance, there is an accompanying diagram that shows the center hex filled with the number 1, the next ring of hexes (the 6 adjacent hexes to the hex labeled as 1) with 2's, and each successive ring with 3 and 4 for purposes of illustrating a 1 hex radius spell, a 2 hex radius spell, a 3 hex radius spell, and a 4 hex radius spell. This illustration is effectively the same in both editions of GURPS MAGIC for area spells.

GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition says this:

"The area of effect of an area spell is a circle. The size of the circle depends on the energy put into the spell. (1) above is a single “ring” of hexes (i.e., 1 hex). Cost to cast the spell in this area is equal to base cost. (2) is an area equal to two rings of hexes — the center, and the ring around it. Cost to cast here is double base cost. ("

GURPS MAGIC for 4e however, says this:

"Area Spells on a Battle Map Represent Area spells on a battle map as follows.
The area of effect of a spell cast over a one-yard radius is a single hex. The
area of effect of a spell cast over a two-yard radius is a central hex and all adjacent hexes. The area of effect of a spell cast over a three yard radius is a central two-yard area of effect plus the ring of hexes adjacent to that. And so
on, building up larger areas by annexing successive rings of hexes.
"

Here we have both yard and hex used interchangeably in the same paragraph/box.
That is the problem. If 4e had just stuck to the way GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition described it there wouldn't have been a problem as the text and diagram both had the 0.5, 1.5, 2,5 and 3.5 hex inradius progression.

By throwing in an actual yard radius into the text everything went pear-shaped The easiest way see the issue mathematically is to use the area of (use Area of Hexagon given inradius Calculator if you want to confirm the math) 0.8660 yd and compare it to radius and see what the difference is. Here are the results:

*1 yd ((3.142-0.866*1)/6) 0.379 yd2
*2 yd ((12.57-0.866*7)/12) 0.542 yd2
*3 yd ((28.64-0.866*19)/18) 0.677 yd2
*4 yd ((50.27-0.866*37)/24) 0.7595 yd2

If you don't like that just use a straight edge and a compass.
1) Use the straight edge to find the center of a hexagon.
2) use the distance side to side (3 feet) to get the yard radius
3) moving to the center of the above hexagon draw circles of each yard radius

More over way back in 2010 DouglasCole revealed that the "If size falls between two values, base SM on the next-highest size." and "If the range falls between two values, use the higher; e.g., treat 8 yards as 10 yards" in the basic set had been effectively thrown out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Speed/Range formula: 2 - 6*log(Distance in Yards)

Size formula: 6*log(length in yards) - 2

Round to nearest integer.
This is why Realm area works the way it does.

Applying the nearly 11 year old rule change and setting the area of a hex as our 1 (ie 0.433 yd2 is our tipping point) we get this:

*1 yd ((3.142-0.866*1)/6) 0.379 yd2; round down to 1 hex
*2 yd ((12.57-0.866*7)/12) 0.542 yd2; round up to 19 hexes
*3 yd ((28.64-0.866*19)/18) 0.677 yd2; round up to 37 hexes
*4 yd ((50.27-0.866*37)/24) 0.7595 yd2; round up to 67 hexes
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Old 06-09-2021, 11:25 PM   #35
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Default Re: Hexes, real world measurements, and GURPS reality

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition says this:

"The area of effect of an area spell is a circle. The size of the circle depends on the energy put into the spell. (1) above is a single “ring” of hexes (i.e., 1 hex). Cost to cast the spell in this area is equal to base cost. (2) is an area equal to two rings of hexes — the center, and the ring around it. Cost to cast here is double base cost. ("

GURPS MAGIC for 4e however, says this:

"Area Spells on a Battle Map Represent Area spells on a battle map as follows.
The area of effect of a spell cast over a one-yard radius is a single hex. The
area of effect of a spell cast over a two-yard radius is a central hex and all adjacent hexes. The area of effect of a spell cast over a three yard radius is a central two-yard area of effect plus the ring of hexes adjacent to that. And so
on, building up larger areas by annexing successive rings of hexes.
"

Here we have both yard and hex used interchangeably in the same paragraph/box.
That difference between the 3e and 4e rules might be why this is so controversial amongst old GURPS hands, many of us remember the old wording. I have to say, Bill Stoddard's reading (that the radius of a spell is in yards, and the conversion to hexes is just an abstraction for battle maps) is more "GURPSy" than the 3e ruling based on hexes. The older rule feels like something out of Man to Man.
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Old 06-10-2021, 12:06 AM   #36
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Default Re: Hexes, real world measurements, and GURPS reality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
That difference between the 3e and 4e rules might be why this is so controversial amongst old GURPS hands, many of us remember the old wording. I have to say, Bill Stoddard's reading (that the radius of a spell is in yards, and the conversion to hexes is just an abstraction for battle maps) is more "GURPSy" than the 3e ruling based on hexes. The older rule feels like something out of Man to Man.
I don't know if more "GURPSy" is the way to explain it as GURPS has changed even within 4e.

DouglasCole back in 2010 changed the way the Speed/Range and Size adjustments were figured - he had you put the value into an equation and round to the nearest integer while the original method was to round up.

Similarly, GURPS Thaumatology changed the rules for how Magery 0 worked; none of the examples in the Basic Set no longer work with either the mechanics or the cost now wrong.

GURPS 4e is a living version of GURPS and like Classic before it there have been changes in the rules. There are even official optional takes on rules (such as Smooth cost for talents).

I would like to point out that Magery and everything related to it comes of severely underpriced when compared to other talents if spells as skills was the only option:

*One (1 skill): 2 points/level, max 3
*Small (6 or fewer related skills): 5 points/level.
*Medium (7 to 12 related skills): 10 points/level.
*Large (13 or more related skills): 15 points/level.
*Smooth (minimum 5 points): 1 point/level per skill affected.

As a Large talent Magery would be 5, 20, 35, 40 etc but with the ritual magic mechanic that reasoning falls down as spells are now techniques. So for everyone's sanity magery retains its old Classic pricing.
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Old 06-10-2021, 01:14 AM   #37
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Default Re: Hexes, real world measurements, and GURPS reality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
That difference between the 3e and 4e rules might be why this is so controversial amongst old GURPS hands, many of us remember the old wording. I have to say, Bill Stoddard's reading (that the radius of a spell is in yards, and the conversion to hexes is just an abstraction for battle maps) is more "GURPSy" than the 3e ruling based on hexes. The older rule feels like something out of Man to Man.
It is actually WORSE than that, because 4e equates the words Yards with Hexes interchangeably. That it uses the same diagram makes it clear that the two phrases mean the same thing and that the game mechanics have not changed despite the wording.

But hey, if I reserve the right to do things my way, I can concede the right for others to do it their way too. ;)
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Old 10-27-2023, 06:14 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Danydich View Post
It's funny how Hexes, real-world measurements, and GURPS reality can get all tangled up, right?
This happens with all gaming conventions really. But in this particular case the difference is blown all out of proportion. A 1 hex radius spell affects the central hex. A 1 yard radius centered at the middle of a hex covers that entire hex, and a little under half of the 6 hexes in the next ring. GURPS simply opts to call anyone in those hexes unaffected, which is certainly plausible even geometrically since there is a considerable amount of space they could be which is in the hex and yet outside the radius.

It's just a judgement call - "partial coverage doesn't count", not a mathematical statement. Most stuff you would be measuring in hex radius in reality, like say explosions or gas clouds, will have irregular edges anyway, not geometrical ones. Objections almost always come from spells (not just here but really for almost all game system measurement controversies), which the lack of anything reality checkable removes the obviousness that any measurements are approximations in the first place.
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Old 10-27-2023, 08:06 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Danydich View Post
It's funny how Hexes, real-world measurements, and GURPS reality can get all tangled up, right?
Probably not funny enough to justify bringing back a thread that's been dead for over two years, but then spambots don't care about that, do they?
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Old 11-01-2023, 05:23 PM   #40
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Probably not funny enough to justify bringing back a thread that's been dead for over two years, but then spambots don't care about that, do they?
You know it's odd that spambots can manage something that looks kind of like a contribution to the thread - which seems to require at least scanning and vaguely understanding it, but somehow can't check the date headers. It's not like there aren't currently active threads to pick to spam into. Anybody understand that?
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