Shanghai Arsenal Big Browning Mle 1900

[Polydamas]

Ian M of the Forgotten Weapons YouTube channel has a few stocked pistols from the Shanghai Arsenal (most active from 1911 to 1921) which are based on the Browning Model 1900 in .32 ACP but with a ten-round magazine, 5 1/2" barrel (not the usual 4") and mounts for a shoulder stock on the hand grip. There were also hand-made knockoffs of these from China.

To stat one of these, would you just adjust Weight, Shots, and possibly Malf (the one he shot had about one jam in ten rounds and he suspects its a magazine issue) and add 1.3 to 1.4 pounds, +1 Acc, -1 bulk for the detachable shoulder stock? Or would damage and range change with the slightly longer barrel?

He has a kickstarter to print a book on handguns in China 1911-1949.

[johndallman]

I'd leave the damage alone. .32 ACP was not designed for long barrels. You might get Acc 2 from the longer barrel, since the rule is basically "full-sized handguns get Acc 2."

[Polydamas]

Not being a handgunner, I wonder if 7.65 mm Browning has good enough ballistics ... the Llama Plus Ultra in GURPS Pulp Guns 1 has Acc 2 in 7.65 Browning. Online sources give it a 20 or 22 round capacity, the book 12, I would tend to trust Hans' research but its possible that is a typo or that some later examples.

I think the SMGs which get +1 damage over handguns in GURPS have about a 24-30 cm / 10-12" barrel (and fire rounds with more propellant than a .32 ACP).

[johndallman]

Pulp Guns 1 has a 22-round double-stack magazine in the machine-pistol variant. I suspect that the 12-round magazine is single-stack, and this is just a question of production variants. Here's a video that gives a reasonable idea of what it looks like, and it seems big enough to be Acc 2.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

To stat one of these, would you just adjust Weight, Shots, and possibly Malf (the one he shot had about one jam in ten rounds and he suspects its a magazine issue) and add 1.3 to 1.4 pounds, +1 Acc, -1 bulk for the detachable shoulder stock? Or would damage and range change with the slightly longer barrel?

IIRC, there's a GURPS supplement (4e, 3e? I can't remember) which suggests dropping 1/2D and Max by 10% for snub-nosed versions of pistols which normally have longer barrels. Presumably, that concept could work in reverse, with a +5% or +10% increase in both stats for a gun with a somewhat longer barrel.

The rest of your proposed stats seem solid.

Just keep in mind that Pre-WW2 Chinese-made guns (and armaments in general) were all over the place in terms of quality, based on the manufacturer, quality of materials, and general level of abuse they'd suffered. Many were effectively Cheap quality with Malf -1 or -2 as compared to equivalent European- or American-made guns. There were exceptions, however.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

IIRC, there's a GURPS supplement (4e, 3e? I can't remember) which suggests dropping 1/2D and Max by 10% for snub-nosed versions of pistols which normally have longer barrels. Presumably, that concept could work in reverse, with a +5% or +10% increase in both stats for a gun with a somewhat longer barrel.

The rest of your proposed stats seem solid.

Just keep in mind that Pre-WW2 Chinese-made guns (and armaments in general) were all over the place in terms of quality, based on the manufacturer, quality of materials, and general level of abuse they'd suffered. Many were effectively Cheap quality with Malf -1 or -2 as compared to equivalent European- or American-made guns. There were exceptions, however.

The specific weapon in the video is from the Shanghai Arsenal, which was a machine shop imported from Europe. Many of the the knockoffs of the Shanghai Arsenal design made with a forge and files should probably have the quality penalties!

I wonder how to represent the way that many handguns made in China did not have adjustable sights? You can get the full Aim bonus with weapons like traditional crossbows which don't have a sight at all.

[The Colonel]

For roleplay purposes - I don't think the rules bear much on it - another problem with "pass made" weapons is that, unlike mass produced ones, parts are often not remotely interchangeable, even between theoretically identical weapons. You may think you can replace broken parts from one weapon with another, only to find that you're actually dealing with a hand-made knock off and you virtually have to re-manufacture the damned thing.

[Polydamas]

I have also heard of artisan-made handguns whose magazines were not easily interchangeable with the same model from a different shop. In GURPS, there would be a Malf. penalty if you tried a new magazine, such as collecting mags for serious gunfighting.

Does anyone else have examples of 'fun' quirks of artisan-made TL 6+ handguns? Cheap kit can make for entertaining stories.