Experience with Comparative DX for Combat?

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Hi, everyone.

In scanning the forums, recently, I ran across an interesting house rule that I saw mentioned in at least a few posts.

The house rule modifies how hard it is to hit a figure based upon the relative dexterity scores of each combatant.

Here are some quotes that I've pulled from other threads about it.

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

... Any defense rules will slow down a fight somewhat.

- Defense rules that impose a penalty to your adjDX based on the other fellow's talent/adjDX will additionally change/slow the game because you must always ask the GM (or player) about the other fighter's statistics. Still, it is doable.

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

What I used to do, when we played a lot back in the day, was to use "comparative DX".

Simply put thus means that, under existing rules, if Aragon has adjDX 16 and the Orc has adjDX 10, Aragon will hit on 90% plus and the Orc will hit on 50%. So Aragorn's high DX isn't helping him as much as it should.

Under "comparative DX" the difference between the combatants is 6 (or +3/-3). Taking 10 as the middle score, Aragorn gets +3 or adjDX 13 and the Orc gets -3 or adjDX 7.

This means Aragon still has a very high hit % but the Orcs hit percentage is much lower.

Originally Posted by zot

When you had an odd difference, did you put the larger half of the points above or below 10?

For those that use this house rule, has it been a positive or negative modification to your games?

[TippetsTX]

"O, that way madness lies; let me shun that;
No more of that."
- King Lear

Seriously though, I did try this out for awhile, but since DX is the stat for overall character prowess (not just for combat, mind you), using it to create a defensive advantage/disadvantage mechanic on top of that felt unbalanced to me as well as my players. Remember that the higher adjDX also has first strike capability which means much more in TFT than D&D.

And the orc in Chris' example may hit 50% of the time w/o the 'comparative DX' adjustment, but that's only part of the picture. As the more experienced warrior, Aragon will have more than just his higher DX working for him... high ST for hit points and increased damage-dealing, advanced combat talents, toughness, etc. all provide him with significant advantages over his opponent.

P.S. For a more interesting and thematically appropriate application of this idea, however, I would encourage readers to look a the variant fencing rules in Hexagram #6.

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

"O, that way madness lies; let me shun that;
No more of that."
- King Lear

Seriously though, I did try this out for awhile, but since DX is the stat for overall character prowess (not just for combat, mind you), using it to create a defensive advantage/disadvantage mechanic on top of that felt unbalanced to me as well as my players. Remember that the higher adjDX also has first strike capability which means much more in TFT than D&D.

And the orc in Chris' example may hit 50% of the time w/o the 'comparative DX' adjustment, but that's only part of the picture. As the more experienced warrior, Aragon will have more than just his higher DX working for him... high ST for hit points and increased damage-dealing, advanced combat talents, toughness, etc. all provide him with significant advantages over his opponent.

P.S. For a more interesting and thematically appropriate application of this idea, however, I would encourage readers to look a the variant fencing rules in Hexagram #6.

Thank you for the feedback, TippetsTX. Not having a lot of experience, with The Fantasy Trip (or GURPS Dungeon Fantasy), I thought I'd ask about this houserule before trying it out.

One of the reasons that I'm interested in The Fantasy Trip is because it isn't D&D. Our group keeps houseruling D&D in various ways because it never quite feels right. And, the classless (or near classlessness) of The Fantasy Trip along with it's seeming simplicity (next to GURPS) makes it look promising.

But, our initial playtest of melee felt strange with everyone's roll to hit being against their own DX rather than somehow making a roll against something that had to do with their opponent. So, this houserule looked very appealing.

And, it didn't add a defense roll, like GURPS.

[TippetsTX]

Yes, coming from D&D is a big shift in thinking, but that is also part of the problem with this particular house-rule (for me, at least). In D&D, you wouldn't use the difference in level between a 10th and 5th level fighter to dictate bonuses or penalties to hit one another, right? But in a sense, that is what this rule is trying to compare... DX is the way TFT measures a character's raw ability to do things, all sorts of things. Even though DX and DEX both refer to 'dexterity', it is a mistake to assume that TFT and D&D define or use the attribute in the same way. Each stat in TFT is really an amalgam of multiple character qualities and abilities, unlike D&D's more literal attributes.

I actually really enjoy D&D (most versions, anyway) as well as a wide variety of other RPG systems, but I love TFT. The game design is simple, but allows for surprising depth. The combat system is rich and tactical, deadly but extremely rewarding. Many elements require you to accept a more abstracted (and perhaps counter-intuitive) simulation of reality, but you'll soon realize how elegant and balanced the gameplay actually is.

Welcome to The Fantasy Trip!

[Chris Rice]

I think I may have been the originator of the thread you refer to. We played a TFT campaign that ran for many years. While the standard rules were fine for a while, it began to grate on me that DX was never affected by the skill of the opponent: your DX 12 Fighter was as effective against a DX 8 orc as against a DX 16 fencer. We used comparative DX for years with no issues at all and if I was running a long campaign now I’d use it again.

The rules as written in respect of DX are fine for one-off battles or short campaigns but I wouldn’t use them for longer campaigns. I also don’t like the idea of adding Talents to get around things and I’m not a fan of some of the new spells and talents in the legacy edition, especially the weapon mastery talents. But that’s just my particular taste.

However, I suggest you try the RAW for a bit first. I only introduced my changes after playing for some time and you may find the rules work for you with no changes.

[hcobb]

Comparative DX is very important. Being one point faster than the foe can make a world of difference.

Extremely high DX only counts if you've got advanced talents.

[David Bofinger]

I would encourage readers to look a the variant fencing rules in Hexagram #6.

Those rules are, in my opinion, the madness of which Lear warned. Lots and lots of die rolls and not a player decision among the lot of them.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

Those rules are, in my opinion, the madness of which Lear warned. Lots and lots of die rolls and not a player decision among the lot of them.

Yes, there is enough die rolling as it is with separate initiative, to hit and damage rolls.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

Those rules are, in my opinion, the madness of which Lear warned. Lots and lots of die rolls and not a player decision among the lot of them.

I don't think it's quite that bad, but I am in agreement with David and Chris about not wanting to add more die rolls to TFT. I merely wanted to suggest the article as another way of applying an offensive/defensive advantage based on DX.

Touching on another aspect of David's response, however, I also think that player choice (especially when it involves making trade-offs between two or more opposing options) is core to TFT's design. With that in mind, I'd like to offer a variation on Chris' house-rule... instead of using comparative DX for every engagement, let each figure decide if they want to exchange some of their offensive advantage for defense. So using the original example, in melee Aragorn can opt to lower his 16 DX to 14 and then use those sacrificed 2 points as a DX penalty enforced on the orc's attack (-2 DX to hit Aragorn).

I originally shared this optional rule in a different thread last year.
https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=171350