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Old 03-18-2023, 08:40 PM   #1
BaHalus
 
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Default Duplication for Speedsters

I am making a super-speedster like the Flash.
I think that, among other more obvious advantages, Duplication is also a good fit, as sometimes Flash acts as if he is in several places at the same time.

But I haven't found a good modifier to simulate that.
I was browsing through the books and forum and haven't found a good answer.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...plication+week

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...93&postcount=5

My idea is: all the dupes are the same guy. It looks like Sequential, but all the dupes are dupe number 1. It looks like Shared Resources, but don't actually split HP or FP, As all the dupes are actually the same guy, all of them get the same damage (no average at the end). If one is killed, it is like the true self in construct enhancement (like a disadvantageous counterpart of construct, where all of them are the true ones). And if any of them are stopped, all the others will vanish.

Maybe I should consider it as something like:
Speedster Duplication (-80%): Duplication (Shared Resources, -40%; Sequential, -40%) [7] and consider the details as special effects?

(I will probably take multiplication +20% also)

I think it may or may not that all dupes vanish also with damage (maybe as an additional limitation?). It seems a little like Terminal Condition, but that limitation should be on abilities that affect others, not the character himself.
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Old 03-18-2023, 09:18 PM   #2
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Duplication for Speedsters

I think you will have to invent a custom modifier. Many pros and cons to weigh, though. I'll have to think about it.

Just to add to the catalog of comparison, there's also a form of Super-Effort, "Multiplication", GURPS Supers p.26. (+20% to be able to work N times faster in parallel, explicitly forbidding faster learning or multiple combat maneuvers.) This wouldn't work well as a modifier on the base ability, since the effective levels of ATR from the dupes each being able to act is a huge part of the value of Duplication. Forbidding combat and learning from that seems like it'd be a limitation, not an enhancement. (It's an Enhancement as written because it lets you create even more dupes than your normally can, but only for working on non-combat tasks.)

If all the dupes are hit by an Area attack, does this speedster take N times the damage? (You could argue for some attacks (like fire) that each dupe is only exposed for 1/Nth the time, so no, it all adds up to unity; other attacks, like fragmentation, means you could get hit more than if there were just one target.)
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Old 03-18-2023, 09:33 PM   #3
BaHalus
 
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Default Re: Duplication for Speedsters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
I think you will have to invent a custom modifier. Many pros and cons to weigh, though. I'll have to think about it.

Just to add to the catalog of comparison, there's also a form of Super-Effort, "Multiplication", GURPS Supers p.26. (+20% to be able to work N times faster in parallel, explicitly forbidding faster learning or multiple combat maneuvers.) This wouldn't work well as a modifier on the base ability, since the effective levels of ATR from the dupes each being able to act is a huge part of the value of Duplication. Forbidding combat and learning from that seems like it'd be a limitation, not an enhancement. (It's an Enhancement as written because it lets you create even more dupes than you normally can, but only for working on non-combat tasks.)

If all the dupes are hit by an Area attack, does this speedster take N times the damage? (You could argue for some attacks (like fire) that each dupe is only exposed for 1/Nth the time, so no, it all adds up to unity; other attacks, like fragmentation, means you could get hit more than if there were just one target.)
I like this out-of-combat enhancement, it will probably be in the final version.

As I see it, the area attack would damage a single dupe (or all of them equally, as they are the same, but not in a cumulative way).

(I am more inclined toward the version in which the other dupes vanish at any damage. Maybe an option with some threshold so minor damage wouldn't cause the shutdown. Or that allows a will test to avoid the shutdown. But the "any damage causing the other dupes to vanish" version is my main aim for now).
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Old 03-18-2023, 09:48 PM   #4
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Default Re: Duplication for Speedsters

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Originally Posted by BaHalus View Post
But the "any damage causing the other dupes to vanish" version is my main aim for now).
I might phrase that as any effect that causes the speedster's motion to stop, like stunning, getting knocked down, or various incapacitating conditions. Damage per se doesn't normally slow people down. Sending the Flash sprawling, however, generally gets you that scene of surprise, at least until he gets back up and recreates the dupes. (Though more often that's a plot point where he switches to some other tactic, as his opponent has just demonstrated his ability to cancel the speed clones.)
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Old 03-19-2023, 05:09 AM   #5
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Default Re: Duplication for Speedsters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
If all the dupes are hit by an Area attack, does this speedster take N times the damage?
A speedster who is so fast that they can be multiple places at once within the span of a single combat turn is probably fast enough that they can outrun shrapnel and possibly even some types of explosions.

That brings up another possible Accessibility Limitation for the power (Dupes must be within x yards of "creator") where x is the maximum distance the speedster can run in a turn divided by the number of dupes.

As a related thought, levels of Enhanced Dodge (Only to boost Dodge bonuses when making a Retreat maneuver) might apply to super-fast speedsters. Call it as -65% limitation for a flat 5 points/level. This represents the cinematic trick of outrunning explosions or "riding the wave" of expanding gasses.
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Old 03-19-2023, 07:34 AM   #6
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Duplication for Speedsters

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
A speedster who is so fast that they can be multiple places at once within the span of a single combat turn is probably fast enough that they can outrun shrapnel and possibly even some types of explosions.
That's why you buy them super-defenses, as with your Enhanced Dodge suggestion, no? My question was more whether it would be fitting and interesting in the game to add a drawback to being duplicated under AE (which of course also makes the ability cheaper).

Quote:
That brings up another possible Accessibility Limitation for the power (Dupes must be within x yards of "creator") where x is the maximum distance the speedster can run in a turn divided by the number of dupes.
I like that idea. Even spec it that way; rather than a hard upper bound always based on the max, let the radius slide according to the number of dupes the speedster chooses to create.
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Old 03-19-2023, 09:19 AM   #7
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Default Re: Duplication for Speedsters

Altered Time Rate! (Wildcard power, x4; Super, -10%) [360/level]

This is what you want the flash to have.

Wildcard power is found in Supers page 41.

You buy the ability with any specific modifiers needed, then multiply it by 4.

So for 1 level of ATR! you get 90 points to play with, with each extra level giving you another 90 points. Assuming the only modifier is the Power mod (-10%).

"...To use a wildcard power, choose any other ability
whose cost, after all enhancements and limitations, is no
greater than that of the base power. Then come up with a
plausible story about why the base power can be used in
this particular way. The GM is the final judge of whether
such a story is plausible enough..."

So for The Flash, creating a duplicate, just take enough levels of ATR! to cover the cost and simply describe why you can do it.

"I am moving so fast that I appear in two places at once."

The flash should have at least ATR! 5 [1800]
That gives them 450 points every time they use ATR to pull off anything else they need to do.
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Old 03-23-2023, 04:40 AM   #8
BaHalus
 
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Default Re: Duplication for Speedsters

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
Altered Time Rate! (Wildcard power, x4; Super, -10%) [360/level]

This is what you want the flash to have.

Wildcard power is found in Supers page 41.

You buy the ability with any specific modifiers needed, then multiply it by 4.

So for 1 level of ATR! you get 90 points to play with, with each extra level giving you another 90 points. Assuming the only modifier is the Power mod (-10%).

"...To use a wildcard power, choose any other ability
whose cost, after all enhancements and limitations, is no
greater than that of the base power. Then come up with a
plausible story about why the base power can be used in
this particular way. The GM is the final judge of whether
such a story is plausible enough..."

So for The Flash, creating a duplicate, just take enough levels of ATR! to cover the cost and simply describe why you can do it.

"I am moving so fast that I appear in two places at once."

The flash should have at least ATR! 5 [1800]
That gives them 450 points every time they use ATR to pull off anything else they need to do.
It is not a bad idea. But it ends up being more expensive and less precise. With all those points I could have ATR and Duplication at the same time and at higher levels.

But I would like to a valid value to this version of duplication even to compare to this more versatile wildcard option.

Last edited by BaHalus; 03-23-2023 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 03-23-2023, 06:30 AM   #9
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Default Re: Duplication for Speedsters

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaHalus View Post
It is not a bad idea. But it ends up being more expensive and less precise. With all those points I could have ATR and Duplication at the same time and at higher levels.

But I would like to a valid calue to this version of duplication even to compare to this more versatile wildcard option.
Though it is more expensive, it gives you the ability to do anything you can describe a speedster of doing.
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Old 03-23-2023, 07:00 AM   #10
TGLS
 
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Default Re: Duplication for Speedsters

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaHalus View Post
I am making a super-speedster like the Flash.
I think that, among other more obvious advantages, Duplication is also a good fit, as sometimes Flash acts as if he is in several places at the same time
I'm not sure if it is a good fit. For example, if duplicate A got on a plane, and duplicate B stayed at home, how is the same individual travelling back and fourth between these two points?
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