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 04-08-2015, 02:34 PM #1 Nexahs     Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Seattle, WA Serious problems with Werewolf template I made a post a week or two ago about trying to make a werewolf for an upcoming Monster Hunters game, and how I was having difficulty breaking down the math behind the given alternate form. I've figured out a couple mistakes I made at the time, but I'm still not getting it right. Let me break down the math. All the advantages and disadvantages (working from the Wolf section of MH p. 50, for reference) total up to 154 points. 90% of 154 = 139. Then you take the 15 point base for the alternate form, plus 80% for Reduced Time 4, -5% for Uncontrollable during full moons, which gives me 26 points for the form. 26 + 139 = 165. But the point value listed for the form from the template is 140 points. I have no idea how they got to this total (trust me, I've tried it multiple ways, including the discounted ST and DX bonuses from No Fine Manipulators (which I then realized the alternate form doesn't even HAVE, so forget about that)) and I really need to know exactly how it breaks down so that I can adjust it. tl;dr I don't know how to math Alternate Form and I need help. Thanks.
04-08-2015, 02:50 PM   #2
PK

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum
Re: Serious problems with Werewolf template

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Nexahs All the advantages and disadvantages (working from the Wolf section of MH p. 50, for reference) total up to 154 points. 90% of 154 = 139.
There's where you're mainly off. As the box on p. 50 states, every animal form comprises exactly 125 points worth of new traits, not 154. So 90% of 125 is 113, plus 15*1.75=27 (not 26), totals 140 points.

I can't tell you where your math is off regarding the wolf, because you didn't post your numbers, but I'm guessing you forgot to apply the -40% for No Fine Manipulators to ST and/or DX. Please check for that, and if that isn't it, post your full breakdown and we can help catch whatever the error is.
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 04-08-2015, 02:53 PM #3 Phantasm     Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the road again... Re: Serious problems with Werewolf template I'm doing the math myself using the template total you're giving as I type this, and I come up with the same value you do. Firing up GCA to do the math gives me a total of 166, which is close to the 165 we came up with independently. I'm guessing there's a rounding issue somewhere, but it's only a point difference. It's one of two things, then: 1) The point total of the werewolf template you're using is different from the template given in Monster Hunters, or 2) Someone messed up their math when doing the math for MH. Not sure which it is. __________________ "Life ... is an Oreo cookie." - J'onn J'onzz, 1991 "But mom, I don't wanna go back in the dungeon!" The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation. Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting
04-08-2015, 02:55 PM   #4
Nexahs

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Serious problems with Werewolf template

Quote:
 Originally Posted by PK There's where you're mainly off. As the box on p. 50 states, every animal form comprises exactly 125 points worth of new traits, not 154. So 90% of 125 is 113, plus 15*1.75=27 (not 26), totals 140 points. I can't tell you where your math is off regarding the wolf, because you didn't post your numbers, but I'm guessing you forgot to apply the -40% for No Fine Manipulators to ST and/or DX. Please check for that, and if that isn't it, post your full breakdown and we can help catch whatever the error is.
The box may say that, but (with respect to the writer - I really am a tremendous fan of the book) the listed traits just don't add up to 125 points. At least not any way I'm adding it up. All I did was find the point cost for all the traits listed for wolf form and total them up (and as I mentioned above, that form doesn't list NFM, so I didn't apply the discount to ST and DX). If you'd like I can list all the point values for the traits that I found.

04-08-2015, 02:59 PM   #5
PK

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum
Re: Serious problems with Werewolf template

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Nexahs The box may say that, but (with respect to the writer - I really am a tremendous fan of the book) the listed traits just don't add up to 125 points. At least not any way I'm adding it up. All I did was find the point cost for all the traits listed for wolf form and total them up (and as I mentioned above, that form doesn't list NFM, so I didn't apply the discount to ST and DX). If you'd like I can list all the point values for the traits that I found.
To make this easier, I'll post the breakdown for the Wolf template and you can see where your values differ.
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Last edited by PK; 04-08-2015 at 03:07 PM. Reason: I'll post it.

 04-08-2015, 03:06 PM #6 PK     Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum Re: Serious problems with Werewolf template Wolf ST+3 (NFM, -40%) [18] DX+4 (NFM, -40%) [48] HT+2 [20] Cannot Speak [-15] Claws (Blunt) [3] Discriminatory Hearing [15] Discriminatory Smell (Emotion Sense, +50%) [23] DR 4 (Tough Skin, -40%) [12] Enhanced Move 1.5 (Ground) [30] Fur [1] Night Vision 3 [3] Penetrating Voice [1] Quadruped [-35] Teeth (Sharp) [1] 18 + 48 + 20 - 15 + 3 +15 + 23 + 12 + 30 + 1 + 3 + 1 - 35 + 1 = 125 points. As I said in my first post, the most common reason people think there's a mistake is that they don't apply the -40% to ST and DX for No Fine Manipulators. __________________ Reverend Pee Kitty of the Order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Twitter) (LJ) MyGURPS: My house rules and GURPS resources. #SJGamesLive: I answered questions about GURPS After the End and more! {Watch Video} - {Read Transcript}
 04-08-2015, 03:08 PM #7 Nexahs     Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Seattle, WA Re: Serious problems with Werewolf template Wolf form has the following traits: ST+3 [30], DX+4 [80], HT+2 [20], Cannot Speak [-15], Claws (Blunt) [3], Discriminatory Hearing [15], Discriminatory Smell (Emotion Sense) [28], DR 4 (Tough Skin) [12], Enhance Move 1.5 (Ground) [10], Fur [1], Night Vision 3 [3], Penetrating Voice [1], Quadruped [-35], and Teeth (Sharp) [1]. Total of 154. It would be significantly cheaper with No Fine Manipulators, but that isn't on the list of traits, and when I totaled it all up including NFM and its pertinent discounts it came out to be too cheap. Edit: Ninja'd by PK. Okay, so obviously I got some of point totals wrong (a little confused about those but I can work it out on my own), but my biggest issue is that the wolf doesn't HAVE NFM. The way I read Strength, the discount only applies if you have NFM at either level, so either the math is wrong because it doesn't have NFM and it's too expensive, or it DOES have NFM and the -30 isn't applied, so it'll be too cheap.
04-08-2015, 03:08 PM   #8
PK

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum
Re: Serious problems with Werewolf template

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Nexahs Wolf form has the following traits: ST+3 [30], DX+4 [80], HT+2 [20], Cannot Speak [-15], Claws (Blunt) [3], Discriminatory Hearing [15], Discriminatory Smell (Emotion Sense) [28], DR 4 (Tough Skin) [12], Enhance Move 1.5 (Ground) [10], Fur [1], Night Vision 3 [3], Penetrating Voice [1], Quadruped [-35], and Teeth (Sharp) [1]. Total of 154. It would be significantly cheaper with No Fine Manipulators, but that isn't on the list of traits, and when I totaled it all up including NFM and its pertinent discounts it came out to be too cheap.
No Fine Manipulators is part of the Quadruped meta-trait.
__________________
Reverend Pee Kitty of the Order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Twitter) (LJ)

MyGURPS: My house rules and GURPS resources.

#SJGamesLive: I answered questions about GURPS After the End and more!
{Watch Video} - {Read Transcript}

04-08-2015, 03:11 PM   #9
Dalillama

Join Date: Nov 2004
Re: Serious problems with Werewolf template

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Nexahs Wolf form has the following traits: ST+3 [30], DX+4 [80], HT+2 [20], Cannot Speak [-15], Claws (Blunt) [3], Discriminatory Hearing [15], Discriminatory Smell (Emotion Sense) [28], DR 4 (Tough Skin) [12], Enhance Move 1.5 (Ground) [10], Fur [1], Night Vision 3 [3], Penetrating Voice [1], Quadruped [-35], and Teeth (Sharp) [1]. Total of 154. It would be significantly cheaper with No Fine Manipulators, but that isn't on the list of traits, and when I totaled it all up including NFM and its pertinent discounts it came out to be too cheap.
This, right here, is your problem. The Quadruped meta-trait (p B263) includes NFM, so you don't add it separately, but you do apply the discount to ST and DX.

04-08-2015, 03:15 PM   #10
Nexahs

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Serious problems with Werewolf template

Quote:
 Originally Posted by PK No Fine Manipulators is part of the Quadruped meta-trait.
Oooooooookay things make a lot more sense now. And I figured out how I messed up Enhanced Move and Discriminatory Smell. Thanks much, I appreciate the help. And while I've got you here, I want to reiterate that I'm just an enormous fan of the MH series!

 Tags alternate form, math wankery, monster hunters, werewolf

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