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Old 02-21-2024, 03:51 PM   #11
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Is Abdomen hit location too easy to hit?

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
The abdomen is the centre of balance and tends to move less than the rest of the body. It is the easiest body part to hit when a person moving around.
It almost certainly should not have the same wounding as the upper torso, however.
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Old 02-21-2024, 06:44 PM   #12
pawsplay
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Is Abdomen hit location too easy to hit?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
This presents a problem from a game-design perspective. The Torso is indeed smaller than the whole body, so it should be easier to target the latter, but at the same time a human - which the system is centered around - should be +0 to hit. So do you make the whole human +0 and thus the Torso penalized, or do you make the Torso +0 and the whole human at a bonus?
You penalize the torso. If you will only take shots that will hit the torso, you are giving up opportunities.
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Old 02-21-2024, 07:18 PM   #13
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Default Re: Is Abdomen hit location too easy to hit?

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Originally Posted by mummy_lord View Post
Hello!
I would like to use every hit location available, but I have a problem with the Abdomen.

AFAIK torso armors do not cover the navel and belly area (this is the assumption used in Low Tech and it is true also for modern body armors:
bulletsafe.com/blogs/news/why-bulletproof-vests-dont-go-below-the-navel)

Issue: You get the same effects of a chest hit, the same probability to hit the Vitals (1 on a d6) AND the other results on the same d6 are ALL bad news (groin, pelvis and very funny infection!)... everything at mere -1 AND it is seldom protected by an decent armor.

I like realism, but how can I stop my players from ALWAYS shooting the bad guys to the Abdomen?
Rigid armours can't cover below the navel without restricting movement or being quite loose to the body. Flexible armours such as a quilted coat or a mail shirt can do it just fine.

Something about 18" by 9" should be about -4 on the Range/Speed chart, plus one for elongated box. The torso would be -2 plus one.
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Last edited by Polydamas; 02-21-2024 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 02-21-2024, 09:36 PM   #14
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Is Abdomen hit location too easy to hit?

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Originally Posted by pawsplay View Post
You penalize the torso. If you will only take shots that will hit the torso, you are giving up opportunities.
Which introduces the problems I mentioned - a group going from low-resolution to high-resolution combat as the players become more comfortable with the system (and GURPS is absolutely designed to make this possible) is basically going from "always target the Torso at +0" to "targeting the Torso is -1 (or whatever you set it as), +0 is only if you're attacking whatever's convenient." It also means the typical default action is now penalized (soldiers today are typically trained to aim at the center of mass - that is, the torso - not "whatever presents itself"), which is weird from a game-design perspective. And, of course, you've now made random locations even better than they were before in comparison to targeting a specific location, because doing the latter is always at a further -1 (or whatever you set it as) to hit. It's workable, certainly, but it makes for some weird and IMO undesirable effects.
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Old 02-21-2024, 11:20 PM   #15
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: Is Abdomen hit location too easy to hit?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Which introduces the problems I mentioned - a group going from low-resolution to high-resolution combat as the players become more comfortable with the system (and GURPS is absolutely designed to make this possible) is basically going from "always target the Torso at +0" to "targeting the Torso is -1 (or whatever you set it as), +0 is only if you're attacking whatever's convenient." It also means the typical default action is now penalized (soldiers today are typically trained to aim at the center of mass - that is, the torso - not "whatever presents itself"), which is weird from a game-design perspective. And, of course, you've now made random locations even better than they were before in comparison to targeting a specific location, because doing the latter is always at a further -1 (or whatever you set it as) to hit. It's workable, certainly, but it makes for some weird and IMO undesirable effects.
Where missiles hit is mostly random, basic gunfighting instruction picks centre of mass because its the point where variation is most likely to still hit something (hunters and advanced combat shooters learn more specific targeting doctrine, the former because nobody is shooting back, the later because if you are good enough there are advantages to being precise).
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Old 02-22-2024, 12:04 AM   #16
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Is Abdomen hit location too easy to hit?

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Where missiles hit is mostly random.
That depends significantly on hit probability. If you want realistic hit locations, put up an image of the target and roll scatter. A pattern large enough for a 1% hit probability will be essentially random. At 10% it's still only slightly weighted towards the center. At 50% it's quite heavily weighted towards the center.
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Old 02-22-2024, 12:10 AM   #17
mummy_lord
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Default Re: Is Abdomen hit location too easy to hit?

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Where missiles hit is mostly random, basic gunfighting instruction picks centre of mass because its the point where variation is most likely to still hit something (hunters and advanced combat shooters learn more specific targeting doctrine, the former because nobody is shooting back, the later because if you are good enough there are advantages to being precise).
So, you would go for "The Abdomen can only be hit at random with a Torso Hit +0"?
I mean: shot or strike the torso at +0 as usually and on a 1 or 1-2 on a d6 (maybe depending on the size or quality of Chest armor) the hit would land in the Abdomen. No direct shot to Abdomen is Possible.
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Old 02-22-2024, 12:17 AM   #18
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Is Abdomen hit location too easy to hit?

In combat with shields, it might be the case that the abdomen would be harder to get to past a shield? Since you've got to have your weapon arm and your vision able to reach past the shield, normally, but the abdomen really has no reason to not be covered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
It almost certainly should not have the same wounding as the upper torso, however.
I wonder...might it make sense to have a higher chance of Vitals upgrade on the chest than the 1/6 of the existing rules? Rather than trying to lower the wounding of the abdomen somehow.

The chest area is pretty well full of vitals.
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Last edited by Ulzgoroth; 02-22-2024 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 02-22-2024, 12:28 AM   #19
mummy_lord
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Default Re: Is Abdomen hit location too easy to hit?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
In combat with shields, it might be the case that the abdomen would be harder to get to past a shield? Since you've got to have your weapon arm and your vision able to reach past the shield, normally, but the abdomen really has no reason to not be covered.

I wonder...might it make sense to have a higher chance of Vitals upgrade on the chest than the 1/6 of the existing rules? Rather than trying to lower the wounding of the abdomen somehow.

The chest area is pretty well full of vitals.
Yes indeed. I think at the beginning it was "Torso at +0 comprises the Abdomen area, if you roll 1 on a d6 you hit the Vitals (right in the Chest). You can also hit the Vitals in the Chest at -3. Body armor covering ONLY the chest like modern body armors or breastplates only cover the Vitals and not the entire Torso. No abdomen hit location." But this would rend Body armor useless in real life if the probability to hit Vitals is only 1 on 6.
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Old 02-22-2024, 01:10 AM   #20
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Is Abdomen hit location too easy to hit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I wonder...might it make sense to have a higher chance of Vitals upgrade on the chest than the 1/6 of the existing rules? Rather than trying to lower the wounding of the abdomen somehow.

The chest area is pretty well full of vitals.
It's honestly enough that it would probably be reasonable to just give it a different wounding multiplier, though you could set it to something high like 3/6 or 4/6 (in which case you probably want to give a penalty to hit the location). Consider this image (for some reason, the image is cropped above the genitals; there's probably some history of someone getting upset about it, because it didn't used to be that way).
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