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Old 07-30-2023, 08:11 PM   #131
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Help a noobie understand critical hits

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Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink View Post
TBH I was originally planning on 250 points.

However... When I look at the core rule book I don't see many advantages that actually improve survivability (for humans, vampries can have unliving ) other than combat reflexes. There's hard to kill / fit but that doesn't really do anything about -50 HP and that's pretty easy to get into when the bad guy rolls a crit hit (first combat I did I had two bad guys armed with tl8 9mm pistols WITH A SKILL OF 10, one rolled 3 while aiming at the head due to most of the rest being behind cover... as a dm I had to fudge that "no no! your arm is exposed too! he actually was aiming for that!" Therefore I got to roll 2d6, not 8d6 for damage...
2d6 times 4 averages 28 damage. What if you just...took the hit? Your PC would probably need to take a bit of a lie-down, but very likely wouldn't be dead.

(Though, yes, getting brained with an assault rifle is pretty likely to kill an unprotected human PC.)

Not sure why the bad guy was even able to make that shot, though. They're at -7 to hit against the hit location, so if they've got any range penalties that they aren't compensating with Aim or AoA bonuses, the shot becomes literally impossible.
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Old 07-30-2023, 08:18 PM   #132
Colonel__Klink
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Default Re: Help a noobie understand critical hits

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
There exist a large number of ways to tone down firearms if realistic deadliness doesn't fit your campaign, as has been noted. And yes, your idea if nerfing all guns is indeed an option, it's just that most players are going to be rather disappointed when they make a gun-toting PC and the GM arms them with a pea-shooter. As I stated earlier, if your players are fine with 1d pistols and 2d(2) rifles, go for it. Of course, when one of your PC's takes a maximum-damage rifle shot to the Skull and dies instantly from the resulting 44 HP Injury (which calls for 3 death checks for anyone with HP 11 or lower, 2 for anyone with HP 14 or lower, and one for anyone with HP 22 or lower), you'll still be in the same boat...



GURPS doesn't require dice roll fudging... but it can result in dice rolls you don't like. It's hard to find a game that can't without fudging. When I first played an introductory adventure in Pathfinder, the first attack of the first round of the first (and only) serious combat in the module (everything else was stuff like an imp who did subdual damage and I think some giant rats who had anemic bites) was a maximum damage critical hit from a greataxe, and killed the unlucky PC outright (the table decided he wound up split straight down the middle, from crown to groin, and comically fell to either side). Stuff like that happens when dice are being rolled.



Many players find it fun to basically set up the situation so they can overwhelm OpFor (positioning everyone for an ambush, say). If what your players prefer is a more direct confrontation, obviously that isn't going to work, so giving them traits that make surviving - and winning - a direct confrontation would work well. You can also use the suggested cinematic options - TV Action Violence, which I forgot about until sir_pudding referenced it, makes it so that players have the option to negate a hit (particularly a lethal one) by burning 1 FP and losing their next turn. Naturally, if you don't like any of the available options, you'll need to come up with your own - as I've stated before, your firearm downgrade could certainly work.
People aren't disappointed when they buy a SW-1 cut TL 4 saber, have a really high 16 strength and therefore roll just a 1d6 for base damage and multiply by 1.5 for wounding modifier now do they?

Not only is that 2d6(2) "peashooter" doing more damage (instead of 1d6 minus the armor dr, multiplied by 1.5 it's flat out twice the dice) but unlike that saber it has the potential for three damage rolls a turn unlike the saber that has to have all out attack (sacrificing the ability to defend next turn) to do just two.

It's a flat out garbage weapon by game rules and nobody complains about it? So why would it feel enemic to be able to knock the average human into negative hp with a rifle in one hit?
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Old 07-30-2023, 08:21 PM   #133
JulianLW
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: Help a noobie understand critical hits

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
2d6 times 4 averages 28 damage. What if you just...took the hit? Your PC would probably need to take a bit of a lie-down, but very likely wouldn't be dead.

(Though, yes, getting brained with an assault rifle is pretty likely to kill an unprotected human PC.)

Not sure why the bad guy was even able to make that shot, though. They're at -7 to hit against the hit location, so if they've got any range penalties that they aren't compensating with Aim or AoA bonuses, the shot becomes literally impossible.
Well, there is the +2 with a 9mm.... But you know what? I just rolled 2d6 and came up with ... a 1 and a 2. That head shot is as likely to do less than average as more than average damage.

Let's say in your crazy head shot scenario, you just rolled that 3 and told your player, "Oh, damn! Farmer Brown just got off a critical head shot on you with a 9mm!" And then you roll 2d6 for damage, get a 3, add the +2... And it's 20 head damage, 18 injury. You roll on the Critical Head Injury table - and get anything between a 9 and 11: "Normal head blow damage only."

Even a zero point character with HP 10 doesn't have to make a death check roll with that damage!
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Old 07-30-2023, 08:21 PM   #134
Colonel__Klink
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Default Re: Help a noobie understand critical hits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
2d6 times 4 averages 28 damage. What if you just...took the hit? Your PC would probably need to take a bit of a lie-down, but very likely wouldn't be dead.

(Though, yes, getting brained with an assault rifle is pretty likely to kill an unprotected human PC.)

Not sure why the bad guy was even able to make that shot, though. They're at -7 to hit against the hit location, so if they've got any range penalties that they aren't compensating with Aim or AoA bonuses, the shot becomes literally impossible.
You actually hit it on the nose. -3 range modifier. -5 due to the location of what was exposed behind cover. Character had 10 skill. The only way the shot would have landed was a critical hit, which happened.

Thankfully there was a thread on the forums explaining that only the first bullet fired out of a full rof burst counts as a critical. Because the character's skill was 10, the negatives were -7 and he rolled a 3... well only the first shot hit, the additional -2 on the next shot meant it could not possibly hit. Imagine if the npc had actual skill and rolled a critical success? Or imagine as I suggested he had a good weapon not the garbage he was using? It doens't matter how high in character points my pcs are they won't survive it.
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Old 07-30-2023, 08:30 PM   #135
JulianLW
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: Help a noobie understand critical hits

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Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink View Post
It doens't matter how high in character points my pcs are they won't survive it.
Well, if they buy HT 14, they probably will survive it. Aren't the PCs supposed to be vampires?!

I think you're not paying attention to some of the basic mechanics of GURPS. The probability of surviving any death check with HT 14 is better than 90%.

Every +1 to HP adds 6 injury to your life expectancy - just less than 2d injury. A character with 10 HP is automatically dead at -50 HP (60 HP possible life expectancy). A character with 11 HP is auto-dead at -55 (66 HP possible life expectancy). And so on.

If you have just a few extra HP and just a couple points of added HT, you're already extraordinarily tough.....

EDIT: An average, zero point NPC, with 10 HP, is only automatically killed with an average of about 17 dice of injury....
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Old 07-30-2023, 08:36 PM   #136
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Help a noobie understand critical hits

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Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink View Post
People aren't disappointed when they buy a SW-1 cut TL 4 saber, have a really high 16 strength and therefore roll just a 1d6 for base damage and multiply by 1.5 for wounding modifier now do they?
Unless that's an intentional houserule that would be pretty disappointing, yes. Since standard swing damage for ST 16 is 2d+2, you should be doing 2d+1...
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Old 07-30-2023, 08:37 PM   #137
Colonel__Klink
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Default Re: Help a noobie understand critical hits

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
Well, if they buy HT 14, they probably will survive it. Aren't the PCs supposed to be vampires?!

I think you're not paying attention to some of the basic mechanics of GURPS. The probability of surviving any death check with HT 14 is better than 90%.

Every +1 to HP adds 6 injury to your life expectancy - just less than 2d injury. A character with 10 HP is automatically dead at -50 HP (60 HP possible life expectancy). A character with 11 HP is auto-dead at -55 (66 HP possible life expectancy). And so on.

If you have just a few extra HP and just a couple points of added HT, you're already extraordinarily tough.....

EDIT: An average, zero point NPC, with 10 HP, is only automatically killed with an average of about 17 dice of injury....

They *can* be a vampire. Or they can delve into cybernetics... or they can delve into magic. All are options. Vampires can delve into magic if they got the points just like people can choose to have more magic than cybernetics.

And no, as I said "imagine if they didn't have a garbage weapon? What if they had some skill?" What's 4 times 5d6?

Ok, what if he had a rifle and had twelve skill in it? What's 4 x 5d6 x 2? (The 5.56 rifles have a recoil of 2 as well!) Oh look the PC took 155 damage to the head! game over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Unless that's an intentional houserule that would be pretty disappointing, yes. Since standard swing damage for ST 16 is 2d+2, you should be doing 2d+1...

Ah I got swing and thrust reversed. So it's 2d+1 minus dr x 1.5 for one attack a turn vs 2d6, enemy dr halved for 3 or more attacks a turn. I wonder which is nastier...

TBh I think a crit hit situation like I mentioned is still pretty bad... 4x2d6(2) x 2? Oh the player took 62 damage and died...

Hrmm... This is a problem...

Last edited by Colonel__Klink; 07-30-2023 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 07-30-2023, 08:42 PM   #138
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Help a noobie understand critical hits

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Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink View Post
You actually hit it on the nose. -3 range modifier. -5 due to the location of what was exposed behind cover. Character had 10 skill. The only way the shot would have landed was a critical hit, which happened.
-5 doesn't hit skull. If that was the shot they took, it should have been a face hit, doing only normal damage. Good chance of knockdown and stunning, negligible lethality.

But you're right, taking an impossible shot and hitting because you rolled a natural 3 or 4 is by the book.
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Old 07-30-2023, 08:44 PM   #139
Colonel__Klink
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Default Re: Help a noobie understand critical hits

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
-5 doesn't hit skull. If that was the shot they took, it should have been a face hit, doing only normal damage. Good chance of knockdown and stunning, negligible lethality.

But you're right, taking an impossible shot and hitting because you rolled a natural 3 or 4 is by the book.
Ah! It's -7. Thanks for the correction. The difficulty there helps a little. It means pc and npc need a fair bit more skill than a 12 to land two hits that way. That tbh helps a little.
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Old 07-30-2023, 08:50 PM   #140
JulianLW
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: Help a noobie understand critical hits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink View Post
They *can* be a vampire. Or they can delve into cybernetics... or they can delve into magic. All are options. Vampires can delve into magic if they got the points just like people can choose to have more magic than cybernetics.

And no, as I said "imagine if they didn't have a garbage weapon? What if they had some skill?" What's 4 times 5d6?

Ok, what if he had a rifle and had twelve skill in it? What's 4 x 5d6 x 2? (The 5.56 rifles have a recoil of 2 as well!) Oh look the PC took 155 damage to the head! game over.




Ah I got swing and thrust reversed. So it's 2d+1 minus dr x 1.5 for one attack a turn vs 2d6, enemy dr halved for 3 or more attacks a turn. I wonder which is nastier...

TBh I think a crit hit situation like I mentioned is still pretty bad... 4x2d6(2) x 2? Oh the player took 62 damage and died...

Hrmm... This is a problem...
Are you - and your players - really wanting to play in a game in which a head shot from a high-powered rifle does NOT mean automatic death?

You're wanting to play a game in which it's either impossible to get shot in the head? Or in which somebody gets shot in the head by a high powered rifle and doesn't have to at least roll a death check?

And now my question is - what kind of game is this? If this is really what you want, wouldn't you be happier playing something without any kind of dice rolls? Where you have total control of the narrative?

Just for the sake of running the numbers: a Tech Level 8 sniper rifle does 9d+1 pi. A sniper sets up a head shot and gets off all 3 shots! All of them hit! The PC doesn't have Luck, is totally surprised, and gets no dodge attempt. The shots are going to do 33 damage each, -2 for head DR, times four for a head shot: that's an average of 124 final injury for each shot. Sounds about right to me.

Are you really wanting to run a game in which a PC survives getting shot three times in the head by a sniper? Or do you want a reality in which getting shot can't happen?
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