Slippery v Slippery

Plane · 09-23-2020, 09:42 AM

B85 gives bonuses to break free contest.

TG29 introduces enhancement "affects others only".

Default is "affects you and your opponent" so how this works in either way compels analysis.

There are two benefits, both incrementing at +1 per 2 levels added beyond the usual 1/level effect.

The 1/level effect includes

all ST, DX, and Escape rolls to slip restraints, break free in close combat

The "attack roll" to break free is a DX roll. A success goes to the next usual step of an active defense. If that fails, you roll damage ie control points.

Does the "damage roll" (ie rolling control points) count as a ST roll and receive the usual 1/level B85 bonus?

TG29's "in addition to the effects" might seem to replace that idea: since "damage" (thrust) usually goes up +1 per +2 ST, this could explain the "plus one per two levels" here. Instead of adding to the derived-from-ST roll (B15: damage, like basic list, is merely a 'secondary characteristic) it adds to the ST from which that roll is derived?

This would be fine if it was alone because 2 slippery foes (as 1 foe w/ slippery automatically causes enemies if lacking the +100%) being able to break free of each other easier is good: +1 to the attack roll per level and +1 to the 'damage' (thrust CP) roll per two levels...

Except for the other benefit: the Control Resistance. This is really the only "new" feature if we view the +1cp/2levs bonus as simply derivd from the old + to ST rolls.

Control Resistance is probably thought of primarily as a "defensive" trait since it resembles Damage Resistance. Instead of "prevent me losing HP to penetrating damage" it's "prevent my foe from building up potential benefits or lowering effective ST/DX via active control".

But that's only half of it: Control Resistance as defined on TG27 is broader:

any CP inflicted by a grappling attack or defense

Grappling attacks are not just "establish grapple" or "improve grapple" (apply CP to others) but also "diminish grapple" (remove CP another has applied) whether you're removing CP applied to yourself from an enemy or which an enemy has applied to an ally.

That's how handcuffs work: first CP is established by the cuffing technique and TL of the cuffs (TG17 example has skill 12 and TL 7 doing 1d+13 : that's a +14 bonus from 7*2 based on thrust 1d-1 : the thrust afforded by ST 12. Here a DX-based skill substitutes for Grip ST)

Second: the CP is attacked by 'break free' and has a similar custom rule for the Escape skill being the basis of calculating the 'effective ST' from which thrust (roll for CP subtracted) is derived. "Control Resistance" of cuffs (which seems to be universal 10 regardless of TL) is then subtracted.

I figure if you don't want to use escape (you're a DX 1 giant with Lifting ST 100) you can just try to force the cuffs. The major benefit is the 'slip cuffs' tech halving CR 10 to CR 5 only against the DX-based CP, which if you had tied DX/ST is effectively like giving +10 to ST making DX the better option so long as the tech roll passes.

I don't think handcuffs have CR in a universal sense: there would probably be no penalty to grapple the cuffs themselves, for example. You could get a very firm grip on those cuffs. Of course: you can't do that with your hands if you're the one who is cuffed, so you'd have to apply CP using your teeth. I guess technically "using your legs" would also be an option at -2 to DX (weirdly it's easier to crab handcuffs w/ legs than w/ off hand)

Slippery seems like it would "count twice" at least when using the Escape skill to sub for grappling: not just in the DX roll used to "attack" (success meaning defense can be rolled against it) but then also in calculating the 'effective ST from which the base dice of CP are calculated: and then getting a +1 on top of that.

Double-counting seems discouraged on TG31 though: you're only instructed to use the +4 on AOA:determined for the roll to see WHETHER you remove CP, but merely BASE escape skill to sub for Lifting ST to determine the thrust ("damage")

TG31 also says that can only be done against "objects that inflict control points" (including restraints or entangling weapons) though so it would not be of any benefit otherwise when countering grapples from hands or non-entangling weapons. Not really sure why. I kind of like the idea of this being a way to allow DX-based CP rolls for breaking free under any situation, since "what is an object" can sometimes be murky when comparing "immobile character" types.

In the same way that handcuffs seem to have "Limited Control Resistance" as in "only subtracts from CP rolled to reduce my grapples, does not subtract from CP rolled to grapple me"

I'm thinking a reversed "Limited Control Resistance" should be what Slippery imparts: "only subtracts from CP rolled to grapple me, not from CP rolled to reduce my grapples".

Even when lacking +100% where Slippery is mutual to your foe: the +1 you both get to you "Break Free Damage" (damage metaphor for CP subtracted from grapple) would be cancelled out by getting Control Resistance at the same rate: both end up just as capable of subtracting CP from grapples, the only difference being that both get +1 to +5 to the attack rolls, so they could use deceptive attacks (or feints) better to prevent defenses. A lack of defense isn't going to help if you're rolling 0s because you can't de-incremeent those grapples down to -1 to end them.

If however the CR doesn't apply to people breaking your grapples (only people trying to grapple you) then this problem doesn't exist.

TG35's description of the function of Break Free is a bit confusing to me:

You may use any limbs allowed, but to use one that you are currently grappling with, you must let go

But wait... per TG5:

You may spend your own CP when making an attack to break free (p. 35) of a grapple. If your attack is successful, add the CP spent to your Break Free CP roll.

Let's envision: an evil 1-armed man with DX 16 ST 16 has used his 'red right hand' to grapple the "green right hand" of a ST 8 DX12 woman. He applies the maximum CP of 8 which results in -4 to ST. This reduces the woman from ST 8 to ST 4 (half) for actions using her own right hand. This also means her DX is reduced to half (per TG9 box bigger and stronger: strength) for actions involving that hand: DX 6. Due to "referred control" the penalty for actions with parts besides her right hand are merely -2 to ST, resulting in merely a -25% reduction to her DX, reducing it from 12 to 9.

the % rule is from weaker creatures: 5/ST DX is 5/8 per CP "round normally"

If this woman uses her non-grappled "off" left hand (she is not 1-armed) to grab the RedRightHand she would have a lower chance of success in the attack (-4 penalty to DX 9 reduces it to 5, 1 lower than the effective DX 6 of her right hand) but if it passes, she can roll against a higher ST for thrust. Hands have 0.5 x ST, which means she uses half of ST 6 (ST 3) instead of half of ST 4 (ST 2) so she can roll 1d-5 instead of 1d-6. Better to be -1 to hit and be able to apply CP than "hit" without applying CP at all (this of course assumes she isn't bonus-hunting via AOA/EE/PB) plus this means the max CP she can build is 3 rather than 2.

Using TG5's rule she can 'spend' CP she puts on the RedRightHand via her LadyLeftHand. This is apparently the ONLY way though: for some reason she is obligated to actually release her left-handed grapple in the process of prying the RedRightHand off her grappled right hand: so she may as well spend those CP because she'll lose all her CP by letting go!

There is still a residual benefit of active control when she spends/lets go: the 3 CP she has via LLH>RRH grapple inflicts -1 to ST. While this would not reduce the DX of the 1-armed man if he had 15 or less DX

uses larger creatures: -1 per ST/5 so -1 DX per 16/20 CP

It seems like you could attempt to pull right-off-right without letting go of left.

09-23-2020, 09:42 AM	#1
Plane Join Date: Aug 2018	Slippery v Slippery B85 gives bonuses to break free contest. TG29 introduces enhancement "affects others only". Default is "affects you and your opponent" so how this works in either way compels analysis. There are two benefits, both incrementing at +1 per 2 levels added beyond the usual 1/level effect. The 1/level effect includes all ST, DX, and Escape rolls to slip restraints, break free in close combat The "attack roll" to break free is a DX roll. A success goes to the next usual step of an active defense. If that fails, you roll damage ie control points. Does the "damage roll" (ie rolling control points) count as a ST roll and receive the usual 1/level B85 bonus? TG29's "in addition to the effects" might seem to replace that idea: since "damage" (thrust) usually goes up +1 per +2 ST, this could explain the "plus one per two levels" here. Instead of adding to the derived-from-ST roll (B15: damage, like basic list, is merely a 'secondary characteristic) it adds to the ST from which that roll is derived? This would be fine if it was alone because 2 slippery foes (as 1 foe w/ slippery automatically causes enemies if lacking the +100%) being able to break free of each other easier is good: +1 to the attack roll per level and +1 to the 'damage' (thrust CP) roll per two levels... Except for the other benefit: the Control Resistance. This is really the only "new" feature if we view the +1cp/2levs bonus as simply derivd from the old + to ST rolls. Control Resistance is probably thought of primarily as a "defensive" trait since it resembles Damage Resistance. Instead of "prevent me losing HP to penetrating damage" it's "prevent my foe from building up potential benefits or lowering effective ST/DX via active control". But that's only half of it: Control Resistance as defined on TG27 is broader: any CP inflicted by a grappling attack or defense Grappling attacks are not just "establish grapple" or "improve grapple" (apply CP to others) but also "diminish grapple" (remove CP another has applied) whether you're removing CP applied to yourself from an enemy or which an enemy has applied to an ally. That's how handcuffs work: first CP is established by the cuffing technique and TL of the cuffs (TG17 example has skill 12 and TL 7 doing 1d+13 : that's a +14 bonus from 7*2 based on thrust 1d-1 : the thrust afforded by ST 12. Here a DX-based skill substitutes for Grip ST) Second: the CP is attacked by 'break free' and has a similar custom rule for the Escape skill being the basis of calculating the 'effective ST' from which thrust (roll for CP subtracted) is derived. "Control Resistance" of cuffs (which seems to be universal 10 regardless of TL) is then subtracted. I figure if you don't want to use escape (you're a DX 1 giant with Lifting ST 100) you can just try to force the cuffs. The major benefit is the 'slip cuffs' tech halving CR 10 to CR 5 only against the DX-based CP, which if you had tied DX/ST is effectively like giving +10 to ST making DX the better option so long as the tech roll passes. I don't think handcuffs have CR in a universal sense: there would probably be no penalty to grapple the cuffs themselves, for example. You could get a very firm grip on those cuffs. Of course: you can't do that with your hands if you're the one who is cuffed, so you'd have to apply CP using your teeth. I guess technically "using your legs" would also be an option at -2 to DX (weirdly it's easier to crab handcuffs w/ legs than w/ off hand) Slippery seems like it would "count twice" at least when using the Escape skill to sub for grappling: not just in the DX roll used to "attack" (success meaning defense can be rolled against it) but then also in calculating the 'effective ST from which the base dice of CP are calculated: and then getting a +1 on top of that. Double-counting seems discouraged on TG31 though: you're only instructed to use the +4 on AOA:determined for the roll to see WHETHER you remove CP, but merely BASE escape skill to sub for Lifting ST to determine the thrust ("damage") TG31 also says that can only be done against "objects that inflict control points" (including restraints or entangling weapons) though so it would not be of any benefit otherwise when countering grapples from hands or non-entangling weapons. Not really sure why. I kind of like the idea of this being a way to allow DX-based CP rolls for breaking free under any situation, since "what is an object" can sometimes be murky when comparing "immobile character" types. In the same way that handcuffs seem to have "Limited Control Resistance" as in "only subtracts from CP rolled to reduce my grapples, does not subtract from CP rolled to grapple me" I'm thinking a reversed "Limited Control Resistance" should be what Slippery imparts: "only subtracts from CP rolled to grapple me, not from CP rolled to reduce my grapples". Even when lacking +100% where Slippery is mutual to your foe: the +1 you both get to you "Break Free Damage" (damage metaphor for CP subtracted from grapple) would be cancelled out by getting Control Resistance at the same rate: both end up just as capable of subtracting CP from grapples, the only difference being that both get +1 to +5 to the attack rolls, so they could use deceptive attacks (or feints) better to prevent defenses. A lack of defense isn't going to help if you're rolling 0s because you can't de-incremeent those grapples down to -1 to end them. If however the CR doesn't apply to people breaking your grapples (only people trying to grapple you) then this problem doesn't exist. TG35's description of the function of Break Free is a bit confusing to me: You may use any limbs allowed, but to use one that you are currently grappling with, you must let go But wait... per TG5: You may spend your own CP when making an attack to break free (p. 35) of a grapple. If your attack is successful, add the CP spent to your Break Free CP roll. Let's envision: an evil 1-armed man with DX 16 ST 16 has used his 'red right hand' to grapple the "green right hand" of a ST 8 DX12 woman. He applies the maximum CP of 8 which results in -4 to ST. This reduces the woman from ST 8 to ST 4 (half) for actions using her own right hand. This also means her DX is reduced to half (per TG9 box bigger and stronger: strength) for actions involving that hand: DX 6. Due to "referred control" the penalty for actions with parts besides her right hand are merely -2 to ST, resulting in merely a -25% reduction to her DX, reducing it from 12 to 9. the % rule is from weaker creatures: 5/ST DX is 5/8 per CP "round normally" If this woman uses her non-grappled "off" left hand (she is not 1-armed) to grab the RedRightHand she would have a lower chance of success in the attack (-4 penalty to DX 9 reduces it to 5, 1 lower than the effective DX 6 of her right hand) but if it passes, she can roll against a higher ST for thrust. Hands have 0.5 x ST, which means she uses half of ST 6 (ST 3) instead of half of ST 4 (ST 2) so she can roll 1d-5 instead of 1d-6. Better to be -1 to hit and be able to apply CP than "hit" without applying CP at all (this of course assumes she isn't bonus-hunting via AOA/EE/PB) plus this means the max CP she can build is 3 rather than 2. Using TG5's rule she can 'spend' CP she puts on the RedRightHand via her LadyLeftHand. This is apparently the ONLY way though: for some reason she is obligated to actually release her left-handed grapple in the process of prying the RedRightHand off her grappled right hand: so she may as well spend those CP because she'll lose all her CP by letting go! There is still a residual benefit of active control when she spends/lets go: the 3 CP she has via LLH>RRH grapple inflicts -1 to ST. While this would not reduce the DX of the 1-armed man if he had 15 or less DX uses larger creatures: -1 per ST/5 so -1 DX per 16/20 CP It seems like you could attempt to pull right-off-right without letting go of left.