TL 4+1 Ravnica Inspired Ecumenopolis

[Thunderjoe]

I want to make a fantasy game world heavy inspired by Ravnica from magic the gathering. I also want the magic system to be inspired by the magic from Ravnica.

I've starting writing it up on this google document Here. It isn't much, just a skeleton of the magic system and the PC playable races at the moment.

I just wanted to see what people thought of my thoughts on my ideas and had a few questions to ask.

Magic:
Mana will be split into five colors. Each color has two others allied with it and two opposed to it. The world has a normal mana level but some areas are aspected to a certain color of mana. Spells using the same color of mana as the area are treated as if the mana is high there and spells of opposing colors are treated as if the mana is low there.

The colors are:
Black: Greed, Selfishness; Personal Power.
Blue: Knowledge, Creation; Control.
Green: Nature, Growth; Strength.
Red: Adventure, Emotion; Freedom.
White: Peace, Protection; Community.

Spells are split into different color versions that default to eachother at -4. e.g. Minor Healing is split into Minor Healing(Green Mana) and Minor Healing(White Mana) since it can be casted with one of either Green or White Mana and someone with Minor Healing(Green Mana) at skill level 15 could cast Minor Healing(White Mana) at skill level 11.

What are the repercussion on society and magic that you can see coming from this?

Magery is something you are born with or is imbued into you by a strong wizard or by practice in an area that is high in mana. Magery is also split into the five colors. These are worth -20% for each color that your Magery doesn't apply to. In addition taking magery in a color that your race isn't naturally aspected to requires you to have an additional 5 point natural feature explaining how you became aspected to that color.

Is a 20% too big of an bonus for missing out one 1/5 of the spells?
The goal is to have races have mages be relatively common in the colors they are aspected to but less common in colors they aren't. Is this a good way to do this?

The Guilds:
A big part of the setting is that the world's cities grew until they eventually covered anything and that at some point in that growth the ten largest magical powers got together and decided to become one giant nation and each of them would be in charge of one part of that nation. Each mage guild focuses on using a different combination of two of the colors of magic.

The guilds I want to keep from standard Ravnica are:
The White/Red Guild: The white/red guild was the guild that used their magic for warfare. They now are the planet's military and police.

The Blue/White Guild: The Blue/White guild used their magic to maintain control and order. They now handle law and governmental issues.

The Blue/Green Guild: The Blue/Green Guild used their magic to change people and nature to make them stronger and healthier. They have TL4+8 level biotech through the use of special magics and are now in charge of keeping people alive and healthy.

The Green/Black Guild: The Green/Black Guild believes in the circle of life and death and that good things come from both. They are in charge of handling waste and sewage as well as agriculture. They are the largest guild because of their open use of necromancy to preform demenial labor.

The Blue/Red Guild: The Blue/Red Guild is one full of scientists and experimenters that combine magic and technology. They have easy access to TL 4+2 steampunk and magitech style stuff and are in charge of research and development of science and technology.

Any ideas for the other five guilds?
What other areas does the city need to address and how be the guilds fulfill them?
What are the most pressing issues do you see the city facing?

The TL is 4+1 with some dips into TL 4+2 in the areas of transportation with some airships and ornithopter as well as an extensive water system being built in some areas for transport. Gasoline and gunpowder aren't things though clockwork and steam automations and tanks could be built.

The Planet is fairly Earth-Like with about 10% ice at the poles and 55% Water elsewhere.

Considering a density of buildings and that is city-like for miles and miles near where cities were originally and going down to Farmland Density at the least in less hospitable areas.

How do you see the different areas of the city looking?
What are the largest problems that must be overcome?
Ideas and suggestions for the society, magic systems, guilds, etc. are welcome.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Thunderjoe

Is a 20% too big of an bonus for missing out one 1/5 of the spells?

In standard mana-based magic, One College Only is -40%. With Kromm's advice, in GURPS Fantasy I extended that to One Spell Only being -80%.

The standard -40% goes with somewhere around 20 colleges. It's not as big a restriction if there are fewer groups of spells. So the limitation value (again, per GURPS Fantasy) is -10% for two colleges, -20% for three to six, -30% for seven to fourteen, -40% for fifteen to thirty, and -60% for more than thirty.

Your five colors of magic would fall into the -20% range. Having only one color, worth -20%, is the same as missing four colors; so it seems as if missing one color would be worth -5%.

[Thunderjoe]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Your five colors of magic would fall into the -20% range. Having only one color, worth -20%, is the same as missing four colors; so it seems as if missing one color would be worth -5%.

Thank you for alerting me to this. I didn't look it back up and was working off the assumption that 1/5 of spells means 20%. Makes sense because it's not really 1/5 of the spells and isn't really limiting a player as he still gets the spells he wants.

[Crzyraccoon]

Funny you post this at this time, as I have a thread of what TLs you need to sustain a ecumenopolis, and I use Ravnica as a prime example.

As of right now we agree that you need (TL10 Agriculture, TL9 Architecture and TL10 power) to have one.

If you want to take a look, you can do so here

As someone who actually played this evil game, I must say that having a world inspired by Ravnica rather than be Ravnica can leave you more room in creativity and fix problems like the color unbalance problems with guilds of Ravnica. Tho personality I would rather play in Ravnica in the future where guilds became better at using their other colors.

To list them.
Dimir didn't really had a goal.
Rakdos was too red
Gruul was using red methods for green goals and was too green
Selesnya and Izzet was actually in my opinion, the best designed guilds.
Golgari was good too but just had overpowered cards.
Simic was too blue in the first Ravnica block and was too green in the second Ravnica block.
Really all the white guilds but Selesnya was too white, especially Azorius.

This is just mostly flavor problem tho rather than mechanics, and mechanics doesn't matter much in your campaign unless otherwise.

A good analysis on the colors if you want to take a read is this here

[Thunderjoe]

Originally Posted by Crzyraccoon

Funny you post this at this time, as I have a thread of what TLs you need to sustain a ecumenopolis, and I use Ravnica as a prime example.

As of right now we agree that you need (TL10 Agriculture, TL9 Architecture and TL10 power) to have one.

If you want to take a look, you can do so here

I actually was reading it earlier but it seemed that the conversation was heading to a high TL scientific side of things where as I am more interested in a lower TL magical side. With spells that can triple food output and with no shortage of demenial labor in the form of automatons and undead. Not to mention that the density of such a world would be lower because of the fantasy style of massive architecture every.

I wonder if this would be possible with TL 5 equivalent stuff that is boosted by magic.

Originally Posted by Crzyraccoon

As someone who actually played this evil game, I must say that having a world inspired by Ravnica rather than be Ravnica can leave you more room in creativity and fix problems like the color unbalance problems with guilds of Ravnica. Tho personality I would rather play in Ravnica in the future where guilds became better at using their other colors.

To list them.
Dimir didn't really had a goal.
Rakdos was too red
Gruul was using red methods for green goals and was too green
Selesnya and Izzet was actually in my opinion, the best designed guilds.
Golgari was good too but just had overpowered cards.
Simic was too blue in the first Ravnica block and was too green in the second Ravnica block.
Really all the white guilds but Selesnya was too white, especially Azorius.

This is just mostly flavor problem tho rather than mechanics, and mechanics doesn't matter much in your campaign unless otherwise.

A good analysis on the colors if you want to take a read is this here

This is why it is inspired by. Ravnica is my favorite of the planes in MTG but I am picky about some of the guilds.

Dimir was my least favorite as I always wondered what the other guilds thought House Dimir could contribute to a working society. I'd prefer the role of sneaky underworld organization be filled by an actual underworld organization, not one of the main powers. The "everyone thinks they died off" bit seems silly. At the same time I'm at a loss of what a blue/black guild could do in a functioning society.

Rakdos is in a similar boat as Dimir. I'd prefer the crazy burn everything down cult not be a primary power in the city though their general concept of working the food, service, and pleasure industries I see as very fitting and a workable concept.

Gruul was a guild without a place. They were supposed to manage and defend nature, then nature got all built over. After that they were just anarchy and stupidity. Though I still don't know what a good red/green guild concept is.

Selesnya was my favorite in gameplay but they didn't make much sense to me as a guild. They seemed to have the same problem as Rakdos in that all the were was an insane cult that wanted to take everything over but in a "good" way. They really didn't do anything in any official sense. They are supposed to be the spiritual healers in cannon but a feel each guild had their own religion or at least philosophy and this abundance of them undermined Selesnya's role. They did exemplify the white/green combination though.

the others I thought fit better.

Izzet is perfect at exemplifying the blue/red combo and fit nicely as the scientists of a fantasy world.

Golgari I feel meet the issue of the black/green well by speaking of the circle of life and taking from both the living and dead to make oneself and their allies stronger. This affinity for necromancy and growth makes them oddly suited as farmers in my opinion as well. Using free labor, using the dead to feed the living, etc.

Simic is one of my favorite guild. The idea of TL12 level of bio tech in a fantasy setting is one I like and their idea of change to grow strong and being strong to enforce change was at least an answer to the green/blue issue. Their knowledge of nature and biology also makes them a prime target for solving many serious issues facing Ravnica from Healthcare(which they are officially in charge of) to food supply to transportation.

Boros were a good concept. Ravnica needed soldiers and police and who better but the action oriented lovers of order. I feel like they fit the red's need for emotion and action into whites want for order and control well.

Azorias isn't my favorite guild but as the government and lawmakers they hold a vital position in organizing and maintaining Ravnica. I feel like they embodied White's need for control and peace with blue's want for knowledge and passion for creation in a way that at least makes sense.

[Angle]

Instead of having them be monopolies, you could have them be competing powers. Selesnaya and Golgari could compete on food production. Gruul & Simic could both be in charge of nature preservation, and be competing in how they accomplish it.

It occurs to me, we could put this together on the GURPS Repository. I think it's be a wonderful setting to fill out.

[Crzyraccoon]

Originally Posted by Thunderjoe

I actually was reading it earlier but it seemed that the conversation was heading to a high TL scientific side of things where as I am more interested in a lower TL magical side. With spells that can triple food output and with no shortage of demenial labor in the form of automatons and undead. Not to mention that the density of such a world would be lower because of the fantasy style of massive architecture every.

I wonder if this would be possible with TL 5 equivalent stuff that is boosted by magic.



This is why it is inspired by. Ravnica is my favorite of the planes in MTG but I am picky about some of the guilds.

Dimir was my least favorite as I always wondered what the other guilds thought House Dimir could contribute to a working society. I'd prefer the role of sneaky underworld organization be filled by an actual underworld organization, not one of the main powers. The "everyone thinks they died off" bit seems silly. At the same time I'm at a loss of what a blue/black guild could do in a functioning society.

Rakdos is in a similar boat as Dimir. I'd prefer the crazy burn everything down cult not be a primary power in the city though their general concept of working the food, service, and pleasure industries I see as very fitting and a workable concept.

Gruul was a guild without a place. They were supposed to manage and defend nature, then nature got all built over. After that they were just anarchy and stupidity. Though I still don't know what a good red/green guild concept is.

Selesnya was my favorite in gameplay but they didn't make much sense to me as a guild. They seemed to have the same problem as Rakdos in that all the were was an insane cult that wanted to take everything over but in a "good" way. They really didn't do anything in any official sense. They are supposed to be the spiritual healers in cannon but a feel each guild had their own religion or at least philosophy and this abundance of them undermined Selesnya's role. They did exemplify the white/green combination though.

the others I thought fit better.

Izzet is perfect at exemplifying the blue/red combo and fit nicely as the scientists of a fantasy world.

Golgari I feel meet the issue of the black/green well by speaking of the circle of life and taking from both the living and dead to make oneself and their allies stronger. This affinity for necromancy and growth makes them oddly suited as farmers in my opinion as well. Using free labor, using the dead to feed the living, etc.

Simic is one of my favorite guild. The idea of TL12 level of bio tech in a fantasy setting is one I like and their idea of change to grow strong and being strong to enforce change was at least an answer to the green/blue issue. Their knowledge of nature and biology also makes them a prime target for solving many serious issues facing Ravnica from Healthcare(which they are officially in charge of) to food supply to transportation.

Boros were a good concept. Ravnica needed soldiers and police and who better but the action oriented lovers of order. I feel like they fit the red's need for emotion and action into whites want for order and control well.

Azorias isn't my favorite guild but as the government and lawmakers they hold a vital position in organizing and maintaining Ravnica. I feel like they embodied White's need for control and peace with blue's want for knowledge and passion for creation in a way that at least makes sense.

Look like we are at nearly the exact mindset :P.

The UB concept can be a power by having scientist looking for power, or a techno-capitalist guild, where they are rewarded by taking young inventors with their ambition and implant new magics and technologies to society.

The problem with fitting BR and RG into society is that they don't like society, as they both hate W and U which are the bringers of society, heck just look at Jund from Alara.

BG in mtg so way to focus on life and death which is quite silly really, when I think of BG, I think predators and evolution, doing whatever it takes to be on top of the food chain. Jund is a good example of BG better so than it represents R.

[Angle]

Hmm. Having UB be in competition with UR seems reasonable.

[Thunderjoe]

Originally Posted by Angle

Instead of having them be monopolies, you could have them be competing powers. Selesnaya and Golgari could compete on food production. Gruul & Simic could both be in charge of nature preservation, and be competing in how they accomplish it.

It occurs to me, we could put this together on the GURPS Repository. I think it's be a wonderful setting to fill out.

The guilds definitely do more than just their appointed job so there isn't a true monopoly. The idea is that each guild was assigned a job to cover for the rest of the population, the guildless. Most Green guilds probably dabble in food production, at least for feeding them selves, for example. If you lived next to a WR base and you were badly hurt, you would probably go there for healing and not travel farther for the GU facility just because it is actually their job, for example.

And I would not mind putting this up somewhere when it is done.

Originally Posted by Crzyraccoon

Look like we are at nearly the exact mindset :P.

Woo! XD

Originally Posted by Crzyraccoon

The UB concept can be a power by having scientist looking for power, or a techno-capitalist guild, where they are rewarded by taking young inventors with their ambition and implant new magics and technologies to society.

That's not a bad idea. The only ones I were coming up with were being the information brokers. They being in charge of keeping libraries and recording all knowledge on Urbem. UB is already trying to get knowledge for themselves anyway.

Originally Posted by Crzyraccoon

The problem with fitting BR and RG into society is that they don't like society, as they both hate W and U which are the bringers of society, heck just look at Jund from Alara.

Exactly. I struggle to find out what RG could do. At the very least BR can plan on their emotion and selfishness to make them good at entertainment and some other services. They do, after all, focus on the individual, freedom, and happiness. Everything from circuses and fireworks to the sex trade and murder. Just find someone who likes it and pay up.

GR is a whole other problem. I'm at a loss to fix that.

Originally Posted by Crzyraccoon

BG in mtg so way to focus on life and death which is quite silly really, when I think of BG, I think predators and evolution, doing whatever it takes to be on top of the food chain. Jund is a good example of BG better so than it represents R.

I find the life and death focus of BG to be pretty fitting. It is about taking the leftovers from the weak and using them to the benefit those still living.

Originally Posted by Angle

Hmm. Having UB be in competition with UR seems reasonable.

That's not a bad idea, but how do their official goals and roles differ?


What do you think of these:

GW is in charge of nature preservation and they bleed into healing and food production. They do this via a "live in harmony with nature" philosophy.

GU is in charge of medicine and the general health of the population and they bleed into food production and nature preservation. They do this by attempting to upgrade nature to better feed and survive in the city.

WB is in charge of protecting and distributing knowledge. They run schools and libraries. This is because they believe in protection and community as well as knowledge and progress.

BW is in charge of government and laws. They are constantly trying to balance the needs of the community with the needs of the individual, the balance between Black's capitalist ideas and White's socialist ones.

BR is still the entertainment district.

RU is science.

UB is maybe in charge of transportation? Combining Blue's want to create and perfect with Black's want to take and keep. They can do this via undead and constructs. Their creation of constantly better transportation vehicles and creatures bleeds into the idea of research and development.

RW is the military and police.

GB is in charge of food production and waste management. They bleed into healing and labor industries. They do this through necromancy, insects, and plant monsters. They believe in the wheel of live and the dead feeding the strong.

RG is something.

[Angle]

Again, having RG in charge of nature conservation, and maybe demolition?