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Old 01-21-2011, 11:02 PM   #21
jeff_wilson
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Objects freely pass through trees- but permeate 'forest' is an option listen in RAW,
You can use Permeate Wood with Meld 2 to meld with the various wooden parts of a forest, but the wood is still a barrier to the passage of non-permeating subjects and objects. Birds etc pass through trees but they do it by avoiding intersection with the wood.

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
similarly are you saying that you should not be able to take permeate metal and pass through a fence that HAPPENS to have that plastic privacy lattice through it because either:
1- part of the fence is plastic and you need to be able to permeate through llof it.
2- Since you can freely pass objects through the fence it's is not a barrier and therefore not a valid object to take permeate for?
Suppose you have 1) a hurricane fence and 2) a fence with alternating slats of metal and plastic. Plain Permeate (Metal) removes the ability of metal to act as a barrier to your progress, so you could easily pass through #1 in any direction, but not through #2 at all, because the plastic slats are still barriers to you.

If you have Permeate (Metal) with Meld, you can pass through #1 as you like, and you can pass through #2, but only from one side of the one metal slat you Meld with to the opposite side, and all but a slat's volume worth of your body will be visible and exposed at all times. The plastic slats are not a barrier because they do not prevent body parts from touching, entering, or leaving the metal slat.

If you have Permeate (Metal) with Meld 2, you can pass through #1 as you like, and you can pass through #2 as you like as long as the lattice lets the metal slats touch each other, and the plastic slats leave plenty of ingress and egress to and from the metal slats to all hexes around fence #2.

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Are toxic gasses, water, salt, sand, or even dirt not barriers because you can potentially hold your breath, dig, or otherwise move through them?
Toxic gasses and liquid water are not solid material barriers to movement. The rest listed above are.

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Can someone with permeate glass not use it to pass through a revolving door?
A person with Permeate (Glass) should be able to navigate a revolving door similarly to a normal person would navigate the same door with its glass removed, other than the difference in mass.

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Basically my premise is: just because SOME objects can pass through something does not make it not a barrier- open space is a very effective barrier if all you want to do is detect <a long hallway with a camera, and a motion sensor>- it will stop a person just as readily as a cement wall if they need to proceed undetected.
The rules for Permeate on p.B75 spell it out, but the essence is solid materials and physical movement. Fear of trespass due to consequences is not a consideration.
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Old 01-21-2011, 11:51 PM   #22
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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You become one with the atmosphere, able to materialize at will anywhere in the planet that's not perfectly sealed, able to fire attacks at point blank range against people in the air, able to subject the entire planet to any aura of emanation you have, and be functionally invulnerable to any attack that doesn't destroy the planet.
From Permeation, p. B75:
"You are affected by gravity, and you are limited to normal movement.; if you lack Flight or another movement advantage, you must walk at your Basic Move."
"[y]ou can be affected by any attack that can reach you within a solid object."

So in other words, you are not invulnerable to attacks, and in order to get somewhere to "materialize at will anywhere in the planet that's not perfectly sealed" you need to walk there first. From my reading each and every one of us already has Permeation (air), since we are able to pass through air. Well, except for the following bits:
"You need Penetrating Vision (p. 74) to see where you are going."
"You must still breathe (unless you have Doesn't Breathe), which limits trips to the length of time you can hold your breath ..."
So by a literal reading, when you permeate air, you don't get any advantage, but you do go blind and can't breathe. (I'd be generous enough to allow everyone Penetrating Vision (transparent objects, 0 point feature) and Doesn't Breathe (air only, 0 point feature).)

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Old 01-22-2011, 12:37 AM   #23
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
From Permeation, p. B75:
"You are affected by gravity, and you are limited to normal movement.; if you lack Flight or another movement advantage, you must walk at your Basic Move."
"[y]ou can be affected by any attack that can reach you within a solid object."

So in other words, you are not invulnerable to attacks, and in order to get somewhere to "materialize at will anywhere in the planet that's not perfectly sealed" you need to walk there first. From my reading each and every one of us already has Permeation (air), since we are able to pass through air. Well, except for the following bits:
"You need Penetrating Vision (p. 74) to see where you are going."
"You must still breathe (unless you have Doesn't Breathe), which limits trips to the length of time you can hold your breath ..."
So by a literal reading, when you permeate air, you don't get any advantage, but you do go blind and can't breathe. (I'd be generous enough to allow everyone Penetrating Vision (transparent objects, 0 point feature) and Doesn't Breathe (air only, 0 point feature).)

Luke
you forgot that he also tacked on meld which makes him "one" with the material. so he doesn't need to move if he is one with something the size of earth, he just comes out where ever he wants.
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Old 01-22-2011, 01:47 AM   #24
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Air is very common for barriers (at least as a component)- A barred window = 75% air 25% metal bars, very few buildings are sealed against air seepage, which means that at least some portion of the 'barrier' that makes up the building is air.
At that rate can I get Permeation (Empty Space) with meld? How about Permeation (Energy Levels)? :)
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:40 AM   #25
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
At that rate can I get Permeation (Empty Space) with meld? How about Permeation (Energy Levels)? :)
I think I'll just take Permeation (Fourth Wall) to steal the GM's notes.
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:21 AM   #26
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

Permeation has to be one of the worst written advantages judging by the number of debates it generates. Trying to judge what it does according to the literal reading of the RAW is almost certain to be a mistake - for one thing, it usually prevents you from using it for its basic intent, walking through walls, since most walls are composed of more than one material. Sure you can permeate the stones, but not the mortar holding them together, or the paint on the surface, or....
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:22 AM   #27
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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My point was that the earth is essentially a giant regenerating ball suffering constant massive damage in the form of tectonic activity from the force of gravity, it's own spinning access, and solar activity- if you meld with the earth and it suffers damage from a tectonic shift causing a tsunami you will not benefit from its regeneration and reform wounded.
Give the relative mass of the tsunami and the earth itself, this is little more than cracked skin and incontinence on a planetary scale, with accordingly mild damage.

The regeneration mechanism is interesting, I'd have to see a more involved explanation before I could agree. And what is "spinning access"?
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:25 AM   #28
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Permeation has to be one of the worst written advantages judging by the number of debates it generates. Trying to judge what it does according to the literal reading of the RAW is almost certain to be a mistake - for one thing, it usually prevents you from using it for its basic intent, walking through walls, since most walls are composed of more than one material. Sure you can permeate the stones, but not the mortar holding them together, or the paint on the surface, or....
It helps to be careful when selecting the substance to Permeate. (Masonry) would get you through stones and mortar. A layer of paint would not stop an able bodied person by itself, though the disturbed portion would be a clue to their passage.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:05 AM   #29
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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Originally Posted by malloyd
Permeation has to be one of the worst written advantages judging by the number of debates it generates.
Well, the pricing is kind of suspicious, but the basic advantage is fairly straightforward. A lot of the brain-twisters come from the Meld enhancement(s).

Last edited by Not another shrubbery; 01-22-2011 at 12:43 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:50 PM   #30
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

I'd say it only works when a wall of air is blocking you, such as an Air Elemental Forcefield DR, or the Wall of Wind spell. Won't work on air you'd be able to pass through anyway.
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