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Old 01-21-2011, 03:39 PM   #11
munin
 
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

The closest way to model "melding" with air is to use the Swarm enhancement (p. P53) for Injury Tolerance (Diffuse), possibly with large amounts of Area Effect to increase the radius. You can go anywhere that air can go (it includes Infiltration), can shift your viewpoint within your area, etc.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:18 PM   #12
starslayer
 
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kafkonia@home View Post
(As people have pointed out, the concept is illegal from the very first sentence of the advantage write up, but I want to address this part)



If it were legal (which it isn't), its price is based on how common it is as a barrier, not just how common it is. For instance, "paper" is fairly common, but not generally used as a barrier.

I imagine that if it hadn't been limited to solids, they'd have priced it along the lines of what you're suggesting, though.
Air is very common for barriers (at least as a component)- A barred window = 75% air 25% metal bars, very few buildings are sealed against air seepage, which means that at least some portion of the 'barrier' that makes up the building is air.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
It should be Very Common for such permeation (as well as earth), so it will be [160] - and this is still less than warp+clairsentience+insubstantiality (230), therefore it should be banned.
One of the RAW suggestions for permeation and Meld in powers is to take 'earth' and travel anywhere in the world instantly, which not quite as potent as the erroneous 'air' (It won't get you into poured basements, bank vaults, or into the sky) it still offers similar utility to the warp+clairsentience+insubstantiality combo for 160 points- do you feel that the power is broken, or priced improperly; or just that there should be some additional restrictions on distance or area covered, or perhaps that there should be some danger involved (IE- sure you can meld with the WHOLE earth, but if you happen to choose a point when there is tectonic activity in place <most of the time> you will reappear badly damaged)
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:47 PM   #14
lexington
 
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
One of the RAW suggestions for permeation and Meld in powers is to take 'earth' and travel anywhere in the world instantly, which not quite as potent as the erroneous 'air' (It won't get you into poured basements, bank vaults, or into the sky) it still offers similar utility to the warp+clairsentience+insubstantiality combo for 160 points- do you feel that the power is broken, or priced improperly; or just that there should be some additional restrictions on distance or area covered, or perhaps that there should be some danger involved (IE- sure you can meld with the WHOLE earth, but if you happen to choose a point when there is tectonic activity in place <most of the time> you will reappear badly damaged)
It's probably not that bad. Enough clairsentince to see everywhere in the world costs 145 CP but that includes the ability to see inside of anything whereas melding with the planet won't let you see into most places unless the setting exists before permanent houses. Easily warping to anywhere on the planet that you want costs ~200 points but again, you can get into things like vaults with that power which melding doesn't allow.

It is an amazingly efficient build, though.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:52 PM   #15
jeff_wilson
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Air is very common for barriers (at least as a component)- A barred window = 75% air 25% metal bars, very few buildings are sealed against air seepage, which means that at least some portion of the 'barrier' that makes up the building is air.
Not even. The air spaces between the bars do not count as barriers; objects freely pass through them with no special effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
One of the RAW suggestions for permeation and Meld in powers is to take 'earth' and travel anywhere in the world instantly, which not quite as potent as the erroneous 'air' (It won't get you into poured basements, bank vaults, or into the sky) it still offers similar utility to the warp+clairsentience+insubstantiality combo for 160 points- do you feel that the power is broken, or priced improperly; or just that there should be some additional restrictions on distance or area covered, or perhaps that there should be some danger involved (IE- sure you can meld with the WHOLE earth, but if you happen to choose a point when there is tectonic activity in place <most of the time> you will reappear badly damaged)
Other considerations scale up with the size of the Meld-ee. If you are melded with the earth, you can move your POV anywhere you specify relative to the earth, but how do you know ahead of time there's anything worth observing there? You can't expect to instantly know where any particular person is, any more than you'd know where any particular dust mite on your own body would be.

The danger of emerging at a seething caldera or in a deadly crevice of some kind are real, but you need not de-Meld at maximum speed, any more than you have to leave the tub at full Move, or have to jump in the pool without dipping a toe in.
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:05 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
The danger of emerging at a seething caldera or in a deadly crevice of some kind are real, but you need not de-Meld at maximum speed, any more than you have to leave the tub at full Move, or have to jump in the pool without dipping a toe in.
You can just take a second to check the place before jumping out.
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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Originally Posted by lexington View Post
You can just take a second to check the place before jumping out.
My point was that the earth is essentially a giant regenerating ball suffering constant massive damage in the form of tectonic activity from the force of gravity, it's own spinning access, and solar activity- if you meld with the earth and it suffers damage from a tectonic shift causing a tsunami you will not benefit from its regeneration and reform wounded.
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:30 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
Not even. The air spaces between the bars do not count as barriers; objects freely pass through them with no special effort.
Objects freely pass through trees- but permeate 'forest' is an option listen in RAW, similarly are you saying that you should not be able to take permeate metal and pass through a fence that HAPPENS to have that plastic privacy lattice through it because either:
1- part of the fence is plastic and you need to be able to permeate through llof it.
2- Since you can freely pass objects through the fence it's is not a barrier and therefore not a valid object to take permeate for?


Are toxic gasses, water, salt, sand, or even dirt not barriers because you can potentially hold your breath, dig, or otherwise move through them?

Can someone with permeate glass not use it to pass through a revolving door?

Basically my premise is: just because SOME objects can pass through something does not make it not a barrier- open space is a very effective barrier if all you want to do is detect <a long hallway with a camera, and a motion sensor>- it will stop a person just as readily as a cement wall if they need to proceed undetected.
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:28 PM   #19
lexington
 
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
Objects freely pass through trees- but permeate 'forest' is an option listen in RAW, similarly are you saying that you should not be able to take permeate metal and pass through a fence that HAPPENS to have that plastic privacy lattice through it because either:
1- part of the fence is plastic and you need to be able to permeate through llof it.
2- Since you can freely pass objects through the fence it's is not a barrier and therefore not a valid object to take permeate for?


Are toxic gasses, water, salt, sand, or even dirt not barriers because you can potentially hold your breath, dig, or otherwise move through them?

Can someone with permeate glass not use it to pass through a revolving door?

Basically my premise is: just because SOME objects can pass through something does not make it not a barrier- open space is a very effective barrier if all you want to do is detect <a long hallway with a camera, and a motion sensor>- it will stop a person just as readily as a cement wall if they need to proceed undetected.
Philosophical and semantic fine points aside the text of the advantage uses the term "structural material" several times.
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:33 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is this *technically* legal by RAW?

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Originally Posted by Psychotime View Post
What would it do, anyway?
He was trying to give a character the defense of Insubstantiality by using Permeation and a rare substance that acts solidly to it.
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