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Old 02-10-2008, 10:48 AM   #71
Pesterfield
 
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

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One question on Judo throws though - I assumed, and wrote the example as, once you grapple and throw someone, you lose the grapple
P118-119 of Martial Arts, you only lose the grapple on a critical failure.
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Old 02-10-2008, 01:12 PM   #72
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

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Originally Posted by Juballa
It would be great if you'd keep a running list of these issues, perhaps organized as a global appendix with a reference to each example where an issue was discovered. I'd find it very helpful to know what isn't covered by RAW, and it might provide great fodder for a Designer's Notes article or FAQ entries.

Great effort, BTW, and thanks for doing it.
My pleasure (literally :P) - that's a good idea. I think so far the only two issues to come up were 'exactly when can you disarm a weapon', which I think has been clarified, and 'do you lose your grapple if you throw an opponent', which doesn't seem to be answered in Basic, but was in MA.

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Originally Posted by RaynerApe
This site is just great. Very nice examples outlining the basic principles of combat in GURPS. It would be great if you produce PDFs with the examples with proper layout so we could print and show our players these examples. Thanks again for putting so much labor and care in your site.
Another great idea - these initial 9 are almost to the point where I feel they're "done". Downloadable PDFs shouldn't be too far out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pesterfield
P118-119 of Martial Arts, you only lose the grapple on a critical failure.
Cool, thanks for clearing that up Pesterfield!

I'm feeling the pressure though, trying to keep the examples pure Basic and nothing else, hehe. If I run across things not fully explained in Basic, but have specific rules in MA (like the Judo throw, above), do I leave them out of the examples? That seems silly. But if that's the case, then why not just include options from MA in all the examples? I suppose I could do that, but it would be a bit more work, and imo isn't as universal a tool as restricting just to Basic (since presumably anyone wanting to learn the GURPS system has access to at least GURPS Lite, but not necessarily MA).

Anyway, mostly just thinking 'out loud' - what I'll probably do is continue restricting to Basic, with the occasional footnote explaining "MA has further rules for this".
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Old 02-10-2008, 01:37 PM   #73
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

I would suggest you keep things down to Basic, with footnotes whether the rules have expanded clarification in other books. Then, run special combats for each other book - Martial Art and High Tech, where it involves martial combat or expanded ranged combat. How about a Supers/Powers combat as well?
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Old 02-10-2008, 01:41 PM   #74
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

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Originally Posted by mook
I'm feeling the pressure though, trying to keep the examples pure Basic and nothing else, hehe. If I run across things not fully explained in Basic, but have specific rules in MA (like the Judo throw, above), do I leave them out of the examples? That seems silly. But if that's the case, then why not just include options from MA in all the examples? I suppose I could do that, but it would be a bit more work, and imo isn't as universal a tool as restricting just to Basic (since presumably anyone wanting to learn the GURPS system has access to at least GURPS Lite, but not necessarily MA).

Anyway, mostly just thinking 'out loud' - what I'll probably do is continue restricting to Basic, with the occasional footnote explaining "MA has further rules for this".
another way to go is to do "alternate histories," where you turn on options from Martial Arts and the fights deviate (or not).

So, in our favorite Close Combat example (#2), Albert should not try and close in and do a regular Grapple agains Zach in Turn 2, but rather perhaps go for a Leg Grapple after he parries Zach's kick to the groin.

This is a Judo roll (Skill-20) vs DODGE ONLY (Dodge-10). Actually, since Leg Grapple IS an attack, it should be Judo Deceptive Leg Grapple (Judo-16, -3 to defend) vs Dodge Only (Dodge-7). Odds are, you successfully get the leg (about 85% chance this works).

Zach then needs to fear a Leg Lock or Takdown. He needs to do something to cause Albert to want to let go. Either kick or punch him (at a penalty for being grappled) or Break Free (contest of ST with Albert at +4 for the leg grapple).

Zach's karate isn't really THAT high to absorb the penalty for being grappled (-4) and hit location; he should probably do a hand strike to the torso or some sort of sacrifice kick. Still, he's going to need to get lucky in either case to break free or cause Albert to let go.

Albert can then immediately apply a Leg Lock, or he can go for a takedown. Albert's goal at this time should probably be to stack up as many penalties on Zach as he can, so that when Albert eventually DOES go for the kill, Zach can't resist. So while it's delayed gratification, Albert should probably go for a takedown. That's a roll vs Judo+3 against Zach's best of ST, DX, or grappling skill, 14 in any case. Albert will win and take him down in almost all circumstances, as he expects to win the QC by 9.

So now Zach is Grappled AND Prone (-8) and starts all attacks at 50%. From here, Albert can either apply a leg lock (crippling a striker's legs is a good move), or try and change position and acquire a Choke of some sort.
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Old 02-10-2008, 04:31 PM   #75
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Some more changes, hopefully for the better:

Close Combat Two

* clarifying note added on Turn Five regarding throws and grappling
* removed Turn Six entirely, as its main purpose was to reestablish Arthur's grapple, which now isn't lost - rest of the turns renumbered
* Turn Six (was Turn Seven) - no longer a failed Neck Snap, now it's a failed Kick

Close Combat Three

* clarifying note added on Turn Two regarding disarming and parrying with a 'ready' weapon


I did, of course, run into a couple more questions though:

1) Do you lose a Grapple if your opponent Stuns you? Posted the question separately here: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=533159

2) We've established I think, from the description of a Judo Throw on MA75, that you do not lose your grapple after a successful throw, only on a critical failure. But this presented a new question, which I posted here: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=533167

Progress continues. : )
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Old 02-10-2008, 04:46 PM   #76
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

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Originally Posted by mook
1) Do you lose a Grapple if your opponent Stuns you? Posted the question separately here: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=533159
Resolved - B371, discussing attempts to 'Break Free' after being grappled, says "If your foe is stunned, he rolls at -4". If being stunned caused you to release a successful grapple, there would be no need for such a modifier.

I've rewritten Close Combat Two again to reflect this.

Grappling and Close Combat have, by far, been the toughest things to keep straight, but I think I'm getting there!
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Old 02-11-2008, 01:49 AM   #77
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Threw together a quick FAQ, largely to keep track of issues I feel I'm getting a better handle on (thanks to the forums):

http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/index.php?id=faq

Now it's time for bed. Hope to get at least 1 or 2 new examples up in the next few days, I think these first 9 are about as good as I'm gonna get them.
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Old 02-11-2008, 04:20 AM   #78
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Speaking of FAQs, from the GURPS FAQ:

"Turns flow in a continuous cycle: 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, . . . The time from 1 to 1, from 2 to 2, from 3 to 3, or from 4 to 4 is always one second. All other pairs - from 1 to 2, from 1 to 3, etc. - have indeterminate lengths less than one second. Nothing special happens between 4 and 1, either; {1, 2, 3, 4} is no more or less important than {2, 3, 4, 1}, {3, 4, 1, 2}, or {4, 1, 2, 3}."

I think the way you have turns displayed now is not how GURPS works, as it implies there is some special division between the "last" and "first" action in the cycle.
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Old 02-11-2008, 08:38 AM   #79
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

Minor nit from Melee example 3, Turn 4...

Zach Red HP: 5, FP: 10
10 points of cutting basic damage to the Torso - 4 DR leaves 6 points of penetrating damage. 6 points x the 1.5 wounding modifier for cutting damage = 9.5, rounded down to 9. Zach's HP are reduced to 5 (he suffers no Shock penalty as he has High Pain Threshold).

6 x 1.5 is 9 not 9.5. Must have been left over from a previously altered example.
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Old 02-11-2008, 12:54 PM   #80
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Default Re: Examples of 4e Combat

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Originally Posted by Garion
Minor nit from Melee example 3, Turn 4...[snip] 6 x 1.5 is 9 not 9.5. Must have been left over from a previously altered example.
Oops, fixed. Thank you Garion - I like fixing the minor nits, it means most of the big problems have already been weeded out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralRunner
Speaking of FAQs, from the GURPS FAQ:

"Turns flow in a continuous cycle: 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, . . . "

I think the way you have turns displayed now is not how GURPS works, as it implies there is some special division between the "last" and "first" action in the cycle.
I've thought about this a bit - at least from the GM's point of view it's sometimes helpful to know when a complete "turn" is over (that is, when all involved combatants have completed one turn), but I understand that doesn't perfectly mesh with the canon.

Problem is, I'm not sure what would be better than the current way. I could just remove all mention of turns, but that would leave a single column of alternating maneuvers with no easy way to discuss or reference specific turns. Or, I could change the turn titles to something like "Arthur Green - Turn One" and "Zach Red - Turn One" without the over-arching turn title, but that already seems obvious the way it is now (the Arthur Green section under "Turn One" is Arthur's Turn One, the Zach Red section under "Turn One" is Zach's Turn One).

Open to suggestions for ways to more closely mirror the GURPS flow of things without making things too unclear.
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