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Old 04-23-2009, 03:22 PM   #31
SuedodeuS
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Default Re: Faster than Wait

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
The problem I see here is mostly that of so-called speedsters who lack the right abilities: "I'm a speedster . . . well, except that I lack Enhanced Time Sense for pre-empting people . . . oh, and Altered Time Rate for extra actions . . . and, er, Enhanced Dodge for getting out of the way." Basic Speed 20.00 doesn't a speedster make. A speedster is qualitatively different from a non-speedster, and needs to be designed around a costly set of abilities, not a single score. If you want to go around pre-empting others on the battlefield, you'll need to think about all this stuff.
This isn't just for use by dedicated speedsters. It's also for pistoleros that can fast-draw and fire before their opponent can react - even when said opponent has a gun trained on some poor dame. This is a case where a) the pistolero is a good deal further than 1 step away (so no Parry) and b) Dodge makes absolutely no sense - the pistol is aimed at someone else! I suppose you could recalculate to base things off of it being aimed at the pistolero, or maybe just treat the "hit" to the dame as a "hit" to the pistolero... but it still seems needlessly arbitrary. Particularly when Cascading Waits is right there, available for use, but with a slight tweak (a sizable penalty) for balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
. . . which I did not say. I said "interfere," not "attack." You interpose a hand or a weapon in a way that prevents the action. That is all. You don't get a free shot. Please judge what I said, not what you imagined I said.
Indeed you did not, and I apologize for thinking you had. The reason I did so, however, is because the situations I'm thinking of are ones where you are attacking before the enemy... which is something that needs to be modeled. It's at least theoretically possible to fast-draw and shoot quickly enough that someone aiming a pistol at you and deciding to shoot you if you move doesn't have a chance to shoot before you do - I've seen a guy (on the History Channel, anyway) that can draw, shoot twice, and holster so quickly it didn't even look like he had done so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
This is a more general issue with the way phased or turn-based combat works. You really can't do much about it in a consistent way without tossing turns altogether and simply having everybody on the field declare actions and then roll a "who goes first" roll, which is a valid system but not what GURPS normally uses in combat, and so rather incompatible with many other combat rules.
Fair enough, but with Cascading Waits you can have just such a situation. By basing this off of Cascading Waits, you can have this rare event occur without having to throw out the turn system, which I like.
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Last edited by SuedodeuS; 04-23-2009 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:29 PM   #32
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Faster than Wait

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuedodeuS
This isn't just for use by dedicated speedsters. It's also for pistoleros that can fast-draw and fire before their opponent can react - even when said opponent has a gun trained on some poor dame.
Not a good idea from the gameplay standpoint. It would encourage players to be irresponsible with the welfare of hostages.
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:30 PM   #33
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Faster than Wait

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Originally Posted by SuedodeuS
I think someone without ETS isn't going to have any way to act quickly enough that someone with it can't react. Giving "defenders" (those who did the wait) with ETS a +20, and aggressors a +10 - but only against a defender with ETS - might work. I don't think aggressors with ETS should get the bonus against those without ETS - being able to process the world more quickly doesn't necessarily mean you can act more quickly. This is also why I honestly don't think they should get the bonus ever, even against others with ETS... but I could see an argument made for this.
I don't think ETS is necessary or useful for the attacker. ETS doesn't make you quicker at anything other than awareness and reaction, if I'm grasping it right. The aggressor here isn't reacting to anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Note that nothing I said is an invention . . . You can already interfere with an attempt to make a ranged attack by making a parry if your ranged attacker is within reach. That's right in the Basic Set – it isn't something new. And the ability to dive or slip forward is in Martial Arts. All I'm saying is: ". . . and the GM may wish to be liberal in interpreting what counts as an 'attack.'" This prevents weaselly players from saying, "No, technically pushing the button to blow up the world is a Ready, not an Attack. I don't care that the button looks just like the trigger on a gun, and that someone standing right there could prevent a gun attack with a parry." My interpretation is more consistent with the rules than inventing new rules to let people violate the turn sequence and invalidate the Wait maneuver.
Well, I may be (inadvertently) invoking a slippery slope here, and I don't want to do that, but the way you wrote it above you could 'parry' any action that could be physically interfered with. Which covers practically any physical action possible, including movement. Even if you somehow aren't doing any damage parrying people's unprotected limbs with your bladed weapon or Aggressive Parry, it's a bit messy.

Also invalidates the Sacrificial Parry perk just a bit.

And I'm really not seeing the how permitting a contested, heavily penalized roll to beat it constitutes "invalidating the Wait maneuver".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
The problem I see here is mostly that of so-called speedsters who lack the right abilities: "I'm a speedster . . . well, except that I lack Enhanced Time Sense for pre-empting people . . . oh, and Altered Time Rate for extra actions . . . and, er, Enhanced Dodge for getting out of the way." Basic Speed 20.00 doesn't a speedster make. A speedster is qualitatively different from a non-speedster, and needs to be designed around a costly set of abilities, not a single score. If you want to go around pre-empting others on the battlefield, you'll need to think about all this stuff.
If a speedster is supposed to be a particular subtype of familiar super, sure. If a speedster is any entity capable of taking an action faster than human reactions, I don't see how all this other stuff has to go along with it. (Also, Enhanced Dodge seems a bit redundant when you have 20 Basic Speed.)
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:36 PM   #34
Kromm
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Default Re: Faster than Wait

So far, all the examples look like things that would be best handled by not using combat time and by simply invoking Who Draws First? (Martial Arts, p. 103) or Cascading Waits (Martial Arts, p. 108) outside the turn sequence. Trying to bolt either onto a combat where the turn sequence is already in effect seems unnecessary. "Dramatic standoff" is a qualitatively different situation from "raging melee." I wouldn't expect to use the same rules for both, any more than I'd use the combat system for a car chase when there are perfectly good abstract rules for car chases in Action 2. A lot of GURPS' reputation for being too generic and not having rules optimized for specific, dramatically important situations stems from people using one or two major subsystems – like combat – as a blunt instrument in situations where they're dramatically less appropriate than less-well-known subsystems.
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:54 PM   #35
SuedodeuS
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Default Re: Faster than Wait

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
So far, all the examples look like things that would be best handled by not using combat time and by simply invoking Who Draws First? (Martial Arts, p. 103) or Cascading Waits (Martial Arts, p. 108) outside the turn sequence. Trying to bolt either onto a combat where the turn sequence is already in effect seems unnecessary. "Dramatic standoff" is a qualitatively different situation from "raging melee." I wouldn't expect to use the same rules for both, any more than I'd use the combat system for a car chase when there are perfectly good abstract rules for car chases in Action 2. A lot of GURPS' reputation for being too generic and not having rules optimized for specific, dramatically important situations stems from people using one or two major subsystems – like combat – as a blunt instrument in situations where they're dramatically less appropriate than less-well-known subsystems.
Come to think of it, looking at the Who Draws First box, I'd say we're basically making a within-combat version of it. It's an odd example, but stay with me for a moment...

We have a few PCs involved in a fight with several NPCs while escorting a VIP. Although they have firearms, the PCs don't want to kill their (unarmed) foes, so they are using various unarmed skills (Karate, Judo, Boxing, etc). Suddenly, one of the NPCs (who has a concealed revolver) grabs the VIP, puts the derringer to his/her head, and yells "None of you try nothin', or I'll blow 'er brains out!" The fight is continuing (that is, the enemies are still attacking), but when it comes to the first PC's turn, he has to Do Nothing, afraid any action might activate the enemy's Wait. We're still in combat time, because the rest of the enemies are still fighting. One of the PCs, a very skilled (and fast) gunslinger, decides to fast-draw his weapon and put a round through the hostage-taker's brain before he can pull the trigger. The system Ulzgoroth appears to be looking for would allow him to do so. Who Draws First would only allow him to do so if the GM decides to exit from combat time.

Realistically, even blowing the foe's brains out might not help - he might jerk and fire the weapon anyway. This would probably be for a cinematic campaign (one where crushing damage is generally non-lethal, for example), however, where such would work reliably.
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:55 PM   #36
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Faster than Wait

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuedodeuS
This isn't just for use by dedicated speedsters. It's also for pistoleros that can fast-draw and fire before their opponent can react - even when said opponent has a gun trained on some poor dame. This is a case where a) the pistolero is a good deal further than 1 step away (so no Parry) and b) Dodge makes absolutely no sense - the pistol is aimed at someone else! I suppose you could recalculate to base things off of it being aimed at the pistolero, or maybe just treat the "hit" to the dame as a "hit" to the pistolero... but it still seems needlessly arbitrary. Particularly when Cascading Waits is right there, available for use, but with a slight tweak (a sizable penalty) for balance.
In the "normal but fast human" case, if Hostage-Taker-Man is holding a gun on Madame Dame, and Our Hero is within shooting distance, it would seem to me that the right thing to do is to say that HTM must make a Perception roll in order to have his Wait triggered (presumably it's an "If anyone moves, I'll shoot" thing). HTM has to SEE Our Hero move to pull his trigger.

This would still work for superhuman speed, if the person can't process the information fast enough to react.
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