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Old 04-23-2009, 01:36 PM   #21
Kromm
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Default Re: Faster than Wait

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

If you're trying to snatch the detonator out of Dr. Bad's hand before he can hit the button, that's a very specific situation. That's not likely to be run as a combat encounter, but more a role-playing one. It will rapidly devolve into a combat encounter, but it probably won't start as one.
Yes, Mark gets it. Combat time is special, and as soon as you switch to it, the universe works differently. The world doesn't tick by in combat time in general, and most of what goes on in it doesn't make sense in combat time. So in the case at hand, don't use combat time. Resolve the situation as if cascading Wait maneuvers were occurring. Nobody really has a Wait at all, but that rule does the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

The Flash simply can't stop him.
. . . or the GM could treat sticking a hand in the way as a parry for Flash. In effect, Bad is attacking him (and indeed the whole world), and nothing says that this is an attack that doesn't admit a parry. Remember that even Joe Ordinary can parry a handgun shot if he's close enough to interfere with the pistol! See the bottom of the first column of p. B376. Here, Flash is doing exactly the same thing against a button-push, and if he's fast enough that his step would carry him into range, he can use a parry and "retreat" to react. Wait doesn't give Bad the ability to attack without allowing others their defenses, remember.
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:36 PM   #22
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Default Re: Faster than Wait

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth
Mr. Fast's last maneuver was running into the room, holding a gun. Mr. slow takes the action Wait (blow everything up if Fast moves).

At this point, Mr. Fast, no matter how fast he is, can't get the jump on Mr. Slow by any direct means.
Sounds good to me. Being able to trump other people's Wait actions at will seems like a horribly abusive ability, and allowing it as a normal consequence of high speed opens the door to a million other potential abuses, like "since I'm so fast, I should get extra attacks for free" and "I grab the object faster than he can see". It's essentially the ability to stop time, and should cost accordingly.

I can see an exception if Slow is actually a mook (with all that that implies). But there's no need to be fair to mooks, anyway. Maybe mooks never really take Waits; they just Evaluate while looking like they're Waiting, and take whatever action they were theoretically Waiting to do on their usual turn (if they still can). Or maybe named characters automatically get to complete a trigger action before a mook's Wait fires. I kind of like that first option, really.
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:56 PM   #23
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Default Re: Faster than Wait

So to put game mechanics on it:

If someone has a Wait and declares that he's performing an action that would normally allow someone else an active defense, then the victim may defend as usual. If he succeeds at his defense roll, then he may opt to declare that he pre-empted rather than reacted to his attacker's action. Choose wisely – pre-empting a pistol shot means no stray bullet that could harm a friend, but it also leaves the enemy with an extra round of ammunition! This isn't an option for ordinary active defenses against an attacker who isn't waiting; Wait gives both fighters an extra moment to think and act, which is what enables the pre-empting defense.

If someone has a Wait and declares that he's performing an action that wouldn't normally allow someone else an active defense, but which could still be physically interfered with (pulling a rope, pushing a button, etc.), then anyone who can see that person, has active defenses, and could reach that person with his hand or weapon may attempt a dodge or a parry to interfere with the action. If the person who wishes to interfere is more distant but within step distance, he may step in to interfere; treat this as a Dive or a Slip, at the usual penalties (Martial Arts, pp. 123-124). The GM decides what defenses can affect what actions: a Wrestling parry could grab a remote control, but only a dodge that interposes the entire body would be enough to keep someone away from a large control panel.
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:57 PM   #24
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Default Re: Faster than Wait

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth
By basic set rules, if someone has a Wait running, they have the drop on everyone else (except possibly others with a wait running, as covered in MA).

But realistically, that's not going to be a given. If you act fast enough, you could beat the Waiting person's reaction time and outmaneuver them despite their advantaged position.

Is there a rule anywhere to support this? If not, what should it look like?
Representing being that fast would probably require a special speed power that enables you to achieve surprise (like my flash step invisibility). Combat surprise cancels out wait, I think.
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:14 PM   #25
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Default Re: Faster than Wait

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xplo
Sounds good to me. Being able to trump other people's Wait actions at will seems like a horribly abusive ability, and allowing it as a normal consequence of high speed opens the door to a million other potential abuses, like "since I'm so fast, I should get extra attacks for free" and "I grab the object faster than he can see". It's essentially the ability to stop time, and should cost accordingly.
You're trumping Wait actions... at a -10 penalty. Against a equally skilled adversary, you need to have a full +10 Basic Speed advantage over him. That's around 150 points... although you do get a rather sizeable Dodge bonus from that as well! Assuming Decreased Dodge would be worth around -10, you're talking a 50 point investment in order to have a 50-50 shot at interrupting someone's Wait. Against an inferior foe, of course, you can get away with much less of an investment (or have a better shot)... but against inferior enemies, you already have plenty of ways of making their actions futile - what's one more?

Also, I'd say that you cannot defeat a character with ETS' Wait. At all. They are processing things more rapidly than they are occuring - no matter how fast you are, they will see you coming. Alternatively, you could allow another character with ETS to defeat an ETS Wait, but with an additional (say, -10) penalty.


Now... what's problematic with this setup? Ulzgoroth has already shown that there are ways to make another character's maneuver irrelevant (active defenses), and I've shown why using the existing maneuver-negation actions for defeated Waits leaves something to be desired (weird results with All-Out Attacks, ammunition, Extra Effort, non-simultaneous actions, etc). Is there anything else wrong? Should the penalty be greater?

EDIT: Actually, Kromm's most recent post looks to have a fairly workable system for use. The only thing I see that's lacking is the all-or-nothing nature - there's no option for both things to occur at once, like there is with Cascading Waits. I'm still not fond of representing it with Active Defenses, although I can see the reasoning for doing so.
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:28 PM   #26
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Default Re: Faster than Wait

I'm not sure why my notion is so horrific as to provoke the alternatives it has. Which just look bad and wrong-premised to me. Kromm seems to have invented Attacks of Opportunity as an alternative! (I'm going to slip forward and parry his hand with my sword to stop him from pulling the pin from that grenade...)

I assume all this makes sense to people, but I just don't get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuedodeuS
Also, I'd say that you cannot defeat a character with ETS' Wait. At all. They are processing things more rapidly than they are occuring - no matter how fast you are, they will see you coming. Alternatively, you could allow another character with ETS to defeat an ETS Wait, but with an additional (say, -10) penalty.
Given the way ETS is pretty much defined as observing/reacting arbitrarily fast (except in comparison to other ETS users), no way to trump their wait is probably the most consistent.

My realism impulse says there ought to be some way, but if there were to be one, ETS should probably buy an edge of 20+, enough to justify the automatic victory it provides in normal Cascading Waits situations.
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:56 PM   #27
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Default Re: Faster than Wait

Note that nothing I said is an invention . . . You can already interfere with an attempt to make a ranged attack by making a parry if your ranged attacker is within reach. That's right in the Basic Set – it isn't something new. And the ability to dive or slip forward is in Martial Arts. All I'm saying is: ". . . and the GM may wish to be liberal in interpreting what counts as an 'attack.'" This prevents weaselly players from saying, "No, technically pushing the button to blow up the world is a Ready, not an Attack. I don't care that the button looks just like the trigger on a gun, and that someone standing right there could prevent a gun attack with a parry." My interpretation is more consistent with the rules than inventing new rules to let people violate the turn sequence and invalidate the Wait maneuver.
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:57 PM   #28
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Default Re: Faster than Wait

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth
I'm not sure why my notion is so horrific as to provoke the alternatives it has. Which just look bad and wrong-premised to me. Kromm seems to have invented Attacks of Opportunity as an alternative! (I'm going to slip forward and parry his hand with my sword to stop him from pulling the pin from that grenade...)

I assume all this makes sense to people, but I just don't get it.
Yeah, the offered method does make it a bit more arbitrary than I'd like, but it does allow you to make use of speed and skill to strike first... although being able to attack with a quarterstaff more quickly than with a spear doesn't make a good deal of sense (staff gets +2 to Parry). Thinking further on it, I think we might want to stick with Cascading Waits, with a penalty to initiating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth
Given the way ETS is pretty much defined as observing/reacting arbitrarily fast (except in comparison to other ETS users), no way to trump their wait is probably the most consistent.

My realism impulse says there ought to be some way, but if there were to be one, ETS should probably buy an edge of 20+, enough to justify the automatic victory it provides in normal Cascading Waits situations.
I think someone without ETS isn't going to have any way to act quickly enough that someone with it can't react. Giving "defenders" (those who did the wait) with ETS a +20, and aggressors a +10 - but only against a defender with ETS - might work. I don't think aggressors with ETS should get the bonus against those without ETS - being able to process the world more quickly doesn't necessarily mean you can act more quickly. This is also why I honestly don't think they should get the bonus ever, even against others with ETS... but I could see an argument made for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Note that nothing I said is an invention . . . You can already interfere with an attempt to make a ranged attack by making a parry if your ranged attacker is within reach. That's right in the Basic Set – it isn't something new. And the ability to dive or slip forward is in Martial Arts. All I'm saying is: ". . . and the GM may wish to be liberal in interpreting what counts as an 'attack.'" This prevents weaselly players from saying, "No, technically pushing the button to blow up the world is a Ready, not an Attack. I don't care that the button looks just like the trigger on a gun, and that someone standing right there could prevent a gun attack with a parry." My interpretation is more consistent with the rules than inventing new rules to let people violate the turn sequence and invalidate the Wait maneuver.
It just seems unnecessarily arbitrary to say "OK, if you are able to Parry, you can run him through before he presses the button." This system works, it just seems counterintuitive. That, and I really like the concept of both characters acting at the same time (in the case of some attacks), which is impossible to do with the "Active Defense = preemptive action" option.
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:01 PM   #29
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Default Re: Faster than Wait

The problem I see here is mostly that of so-called speedsters who lack the right abilities: "I'm a speedster . . . well, except that I lack Enhanced Time Sense for pre-empting people . . . oh, and Altered Time Rate for extra actions . . . and, er, Enhanced Dodge for getting out of the way." Basic Speed 20.00 doesn't a speedster make. A speedster is qualitatively different from a non-speedster, and needs to be designed around a costly set of abilities, not a single score. If you want to go around pre-empting others on the battlefield, you'll need to think about all this stuff.
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:05 PM   #30
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Default Re: Faster than Wait

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

It just seems unnecessarily arbitrary to say "OK, if you are able to Parry, you can run him through before he presses the button."
. . . which I did not say. I said "interfere," not "attack." You interpose a hand or a weapon in a way that prevents the action. That is all. You don't get a free shot. Please judge what I said, not what you imagined I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

That, and I really like the concept of both characters acting at the same time (in the case of some attacks), which is impossible to do with the "Active Defense = preemptive action" option.
This is a more general issue with the way phased or turn-based combat works. You really can't do much about it in a consistent way without tossing turns altogether and simply having everybody on the field declare actions and then roll a "who goes first" roll, which is a valid system but not what GURPS normally uses in combat, and so rather incompatible with many other combat rules.
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