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Old 12-05-2022, 08:51 AM   #11
VIVIT
 
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

The thing that hurts my brain about armor is the fact that your ability to remain effective while wearing it is based on your DX, not your ST. And with the way character creation works, the more points you spend on DX, the less points you have to spend on ST, so the net effect is that full plate is useful to an ST 8/DX 16 atomweight but crippling to the burly ST 14/DX 10 knight who should actually be able to move in it. Whether or not it's "worth it" from a gameplay standpoint, I'm far more worried about the way it flies in the face of common sense.
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Old 12-05-2022, 09:26 AM   #12
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

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Originally Posted by VIVIT View Post
The thing that hurts my brain about armor is the fact that your ability to remain effective while wearing it is based on your DX, not your ST. And with the way character creation works, the more points you spend on DX, the less points you have to spend on ST, so the net effect is that full plate is useful to an ST 8/DX 16 atomweight but crippling to the burly ST 14/DX 10 knight who should actually be able to move in it. Whether or not it's "worth it" from a gameplay standpoint, I'm far more worried about the way it flies in the face of common sense.
IMHO, TFT would be improved if ST had an impact on armor's DX and MA penalties.
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Old 12-05-2022, 09:39 AM   #13
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

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Originally Posted by VIVIT View Post
who should actually be able to move in it.
55 pounds for (human) plate armor divided by ST 8 is a 6.875 ratio, which is another point of adjDX lost, without carrying anything else.

So make sure you take a goblin instead. (If the answer isn't goblin then have you actually checked behind you?)

Armored Goblin, Goblin, age 20
ST 6, DX 15 (12), IQ 11, MA 10 (6)
Talents include: Acrobatics, Dagger Expertise, Naturalist, Swimming, Woodsman
Languages: Common, Goblin
Weapon: very fine dagger (1d+2), silver dagger (1d), 3 daggers (1d), brand (1d-2)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-4)
Armor: chain stops 3 hits
Equipment: Belt pouch, backpack, Labyrinth kit, full waterskin, 1 day rations

The big problem is that he can't pick up a healing potion without going over 6x ST.
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Old 12-05-2022, 09:48 AM   #14
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

i have always been curious about armor penalties. It seems that game designers feel they must be included in order to satisfy some "balance" issue that they believe exists, but historically there really wasn't. If you had access to armor, you wore it. It's not like the Romans evaluated each soldier and said, "this guy will benefit from armor, but this guy will not." And, in the dark ages, if you were in the right economic category, you wore armor.
Yes, some northern European cultures famously did not wear armor, but they used shields almost by default, and the reason they did not wear armor was more about access to the materials. Yes, they could also move faster, but when they went to war (not on a raid) they wore armor as much as they possibly could.
Does armor slow you down? Maybe, maybe not. Does armor affect your swiftness, dexterity? Maybe, maybe not.

I think, at least I've always felt, that armor, as it was handled in the earliest RPGs was better managed by economic availability, and some minor (very minor) class restrictions, particularly when magic is involved which we definitely do not have real world comparisons to look at.

If the game must have defined strength values that separate fighters on the primary level, maybe there is a need for a strength qualifier for some types of armor, but once you meet those requirements there should be no restrictions imposed on the figure wearing that armor.

Will this make every fighter choose armor if it is available? Yes, but then again, that makes sense to me.
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Old 12-05-2022, 01:03 PM   #15
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

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Originally Posted by VIVIT View Post
The thing that hurts my brain about armor is the fact that your ability to remain effective while wearing it is based on your DX, not your ST. And with the way character creation works, the more points you spend on DX, the less points you have to spend on ST, so the net effect is that full plate is useful to an ST 8/DX 16 atomweight but crippling to the burly ST 14/DX 10 knight who should actually be able to move in it. Whether or not it's "worth it" from a gameplay standpoint, I'm far more worried about the way it flies in the face of common sense.
This assumes that you are playing 32 point starting characters.

If you start running 36 point characters, this problem is lessened. Try playing with mid-career characters.
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Old 12-06-2022, 05:47 AM   #16
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
IMHO, TFT would be improved if ST had an impact on armor's DX and MA penalties.
If you have a copy of Classic ITL, please see page 8 where it discusses ADVANTAGES OF GREAT STRENGTH. It goes into more detail of how ST alleviates armor related DX and MA adjustments for higher ST characters. Much of this was stripped out of the NERFed Legacy version of ITL. While the ST levels mentioned in the Classic ITL version pertain mostly to ST Levels possessed by giants, some extrapolations could be made for lower ST human characters.

From Classic ITL:

Quote:
When a character's ST reaches high enough levels, amazing feats are possible. Examples:

At ST 18, cloth or leather armor does not slow a figure at all, or affect DX. Chainmail only gives you DX -2 and MA 8. In plate or half-plate your MA remains 6, but your DX is reduced by one less than it would be for a weaker figure.
At ST 18 or above, you can pick up items of furniture, BIG rocks, etc., and throw them for (1+1) damage - more if you're stronger and the GM permits it.
At ST 20, you can carry a large shield without DX adjustment, or a tower shield at DX -1.
At ST 20, you can use your foot against doors, chests, etc., as though it were a blunt weapon (1 die damage to the thing you kick, none to you).
At ST 24, chainmail does not slow your movement or reduce your DX — nor does a tower shield. In heavier armor your MA is 8. Half-plate gives you DX -3; plate gives you -4.
At ST 26, half-plate does not affect your MA, and your DX is only -2.
At ST 28, your MA is not affected by ANY armor. Plate gives you DX -2; half plate gives you DX -1.
I have adopted this scale. It does make some giants far more deadly.

Last edited by Bill_in_IN; 12-06-2022 at 06:23 AM.
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Old 12-06-2022, 07:08 AM   #17
Terquem
 
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

I would start applying ST adjustments to armor penalties st ST 13 where "above average" ST starts

And I don't think I would use movement penalties for armor other than for overland movement rates.
My reasoning would be if the character is trained to fight in armor, movement over a 5 or 6 second period of time, where engaging enemies is the idea, would not be dramatically affected

Last edited by Terquem; 12-06-2022 at 07:27 AM. Reason: Added a thought
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Old 12-06-2022, 07:27 AM   #18
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

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Originally Posted by Terquem View Post
I would start applying ST adjustments to armor penalties st ST 13 where "above average" ST starts
One could do that by scale if they take to following differences between Classic and Legacy ITL into account.

Classic ITL suggested limiting humanoid figures to ST 30 as opposed to ST of 20 in Legacy ITL.

Classic ITL stated that when ST is 10 higher the the minimum ST to wield a 2-handed weapon, it can be wielded in 1-hand. Legacy ITL reduced this to 3 ST higher.

Classic ITL recognized ST as a factor for the encumbrance affects of armor and Legacy ITL seems to have no mention of it.

I believe that the prior affect of ST on armor as stated in Classic ITL could be scaled down in both ST levels and their associated encumbrance (DX and MA adjustments) for better application to all characters and not just giants, trolls, etc. For now, I'm using the Classic ITL info that I posted which is radical enough to mitigate the Legacy NERFing of ITL.
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Old 12-06-2022, 09:45 AM   #19
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

Unless you are a 14-year-old David clanking around in King Saul's armor, which is not only too heavy for you but isn't fitted properly, I don't think armor should have much of an effect on your DX at all. It makes some sense for it to affect MA, and it makes sense for too-heavy weapons to effect your DX, but not vice-versa. Unless you're using a highly mobile fighting style with lots of bobbing and weaving and lunging (i.e. fencing or UC), I don't see what body armor has to do with the speed and accuracy of your attacks.
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Old 12-06-2022, 04:29 PM   #20
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Default Re: Armor, is it worth it?

Armor for characters whose ST + DX is in the 20-24 range, tends to be a wash in a basic duel. In other combat situations, it depends.

For example, if you're under ranged attack and can't fight back at the moment, the more armor, the better.

But also, for characters who can keep their adjDX at 11+ with armor on, they'll still be effective at attacking, so it will tend to be a good idea to have armor in that case. This means that armor is more effective, in general, for more experienced figures with good base DX. And, that having armor that reduces your DX below 10, tends to make you less and less effective at attacking and being useful in combat.
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