12-05-2022, 08:51 AM | #11 |
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: The Wired
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Re: Armor, is it worth it?
The thing that hurts my brain about armor is the fact that your ability to remain effective while wearing it is based on your DX, not your ST. And with the way character creation works, the more points you spend on DX, the less points you have to spend on ST, so the net effect is that full plate is useful to an ST 8/DX 16 atomweight but crippling to the burly ST 14/DX 10 knight who should actually be able to move in it. Whether or not it's "worth it" from a gameplay standpoint, I'm far more worried about the way it flies in the face of common sense.
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12-05-2022, 09:26 AM | #12 | |
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: New England
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Re: Armor, is it worth it?
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12-05-2022, 09:39 AM | #13 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
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Re: Armor, is it worth it?
55 pounds for (human) plate armor divided by ST 8 is a 6.875 ratio, which is another point of adjDX lost, without carrying anything else.
So make sure you take a goblin instead. (If the answer isn't goblin then have you actually checked behind you?) Armored Goblin, Goblin, age 20 ST 6, DX 15 (12), IQ 11, MA 10 (6) Talents include: Acrobatics, Dagger Expertise, Naturalist, Swimming, Woodsman Languages: Common, Goblin Weapon: very fine dagger (1d+2), silver dagger (1d), 3 daggers (1d), brand (1d-2) Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-4) Armor: chain stops 3 hits Equipment: Belt pouch, backpack, Labyrinth kit, full waterskin, 1 day rations The big problem is that he can't pick up a healing potion without going over 6x ST.
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12-05-2022, 09:48 AM | #14 |
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Idaho Falls
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Re: Armor, is it worth it?
i have always been curious about armor penalties. It seems that game designers feel they must be included in order to satisfy some "balance" issue that they believe exists, but historically there really wasn't. If you had access to armor, you wore it. It's not like the Romans evaluated each soldier and said, "this guy will benefit from armor, but this guy will not." And, in the dark ages, if you were in the right economic category, you wore armor.
Yes, some northern European cultures famously did not wear armor, but they used shields almost by default, and the reason they did not wear armor was more about access to the materials. Yes, they could also move faster, but when they went to war (not on a raid) they wore armor as much as they possibly could. Does armor slow you down? Maybe, maybe not. Does armor affect your swiftness, dexterity? Maybe, maybe not. I think, at least I've always felt, that armor, as it was handled in the earliest RPGs was better managed by economic availability, and some minor (very minor) class restrictions, particularly when magic is involved which we definitely do not have real world comparisons to look at. If the game must have defined strength values that separate fighters on the primary level, maybe there is a need for a strength qualifier for some types of armor, but once you meet those requirements there should be no restrictions imposed on the figure wearing that armor. Will this make every fighter choose armor if it is available? Yes, but then again, that makes sense to me. |
12-05-2022, 01:03 PM | #15 | |
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Portland, Maine
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Re: Armor, is it worth it?
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If you start running 36 point characters, this problem is lessened. Try playing with mid-career characters.
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12-06-2022, 05:47 AM | #16 | ||
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
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Re: Armor, is it worth it?
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From Classic ITL: Quote:
Last edited by Bill_in_IN; 12-06-2022 at 06:23 AM. |
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12-06-2022, 07:08 AM | #17 |
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Idaho Falls
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Re: Armor, is it worth it?
I would start applying ST adjustments to armor penalties st ST 13 where "above average" ST starts
And I don't think I would use movement penalties for armor other than for overland movement rates. My reasoning would be if the character is trained to fight in armor, movement over a 5 or 6 second period of time, where engaging enemies is the idea, would not be dramatically affected Last edited by Terquem; 12-06-2022 at 07:27 AM. Reason: Added a thought |
12-06-2022, 07:27 AM | #18 | |
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
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Re: Armor, is it worth it?
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Classic ITL suggested limiting humanoid figures to ST 30 as opposed to ST of 20 in Legacy ITL. Classic ITL stated that when ST is 10 higher the the minimum ST to wield a 2-handed weapon, it can be wielded in 1-hand. Legacy ITL reduced this to 3 ST higher. Classic ITL recognized ST as a factor for the encumbrance affects of armor and Legacy ITL seems to have no mention of it. I believe that the prior affect of ST on armor as stated in Classic ITL could be scaled down in both ST levels and their associated encumbrance (DX and MA adjustments) for better application to all characters and not just giants, trolls, etc. For now, I'm using the Classic ITL info that I posted which is radical enough to mitigate the Legacy NERFing of ITL. |
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12-06-2022, 09:45 AM | #19 |
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: The Wired
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Re: Armor, is it worth it?
Unless you are a 14-year-old David clanking around in King Saul's armor, which is not only too heavy for you but isn't fitted properly, I don't think armor should have much of an effect on your DX at all. It makes some sense for it to affect MA, and it makes sense for too-heavy weapons to effect your DX, but not vice-versa. Unless you're using a highly mobile fighting style with lots of bobbing and weaving and lunging (i.e. fencing or UC), I don't see what body armor has to do with the speed and accuracy of your attacks.
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12-06-2022, 04:29 PM | #20 |
Join Date: May 2015
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Re: Armor, is it worth it?
Armor for characters whose ST + DX is in the 20-24 range, tends to be a wash in a basic duel. In other combat situations, it depends.
For example, if you're under ranged attack and can't fight back at the moment, the more armor, the better. But also, for characters who can keep their adjDX at 11+ with armor on, they'll still be effective at attacking, so it will tend to be a good idea to have armor in that case. This means that armor is more effective, in general, for more experienced figures with good base DX. And, that having armor that reduces your DX below 10, tends to make you less and less effective at attacking and being useful in combat. |
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