Games v. Gambling

[BaronVonStevie]

craps is not pure chance in the sense that house is uninvolved. the payouts are still skewed towards the house; the best odds you'll find are the don't pass line and the odds or lays you yourself determine. Everything else (especially prop bets) takes a huge cut and leaves you with only a slim percentage per bet to make money. if people only played the best odds, there'd be only don't pass bets. this is not case.

[Not]

I didn't say a fair game. A coin flip bet with uneven odds is still a game of pure chance, unless your universe has telekinesis.

Anyhow, do I need a craps skill or will gambling cover it?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Not

Anyhow, do I need a craps skill or will gambling cover it?

That's the sort of thing I meant when I said "Casino Games". On the other hand I wouldn't be opposed to a Game (Casino Games) skill that covers Craps, Roulette, Slots, Blackjack and so on. Success gives you a +1 for "familiarity with the game" (don't give this bonus twice), failure gives you -1, and criticals give +2/-2 to the Gambling roll.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That's the sort of thing I meant when I said "Casino Games". On the other hand I wouldn't be opposed to a Game (Casino Games) skill that covers Craps, Roulette, Slots, Blackjack and so on. Success gives you a +1 for "familiarity with the game" (don't give this bonus twice), failure gives you -1, and criticals give +2/-2 to the Gambling roll.

That strikes me as really redundant. Gambling skill is defined as including +1 to +5 for familiarity with the game being played, with no mention of a complementary skill roll being needed. Giving an extra +1 for familiarity for a roll against Games is double counting; on the other hand, substituting the Games roll limits you to a bonus of +2 and gives you a chance of a penalty, both of which are worse than the standard rules. I think this is a case for keeping it simple.

Bill Stoddard

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by whswhs

That strikes me as really redundant. Gambling skill is defined as including +1 to +5 for familiarity with the game being played, with no mention of a complementary skill roll being needed.

I assume the +5 is for games where knowledge is especially important. Most Casino Games don't work like that.

I think this is a case for keeping it simple.

That is what I said in the first place.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Not

What about a game of pure chance, like craps. Could craps be merely a familiarity of gambling, and not a separate skill?

What skill is involved *other* than betting the odds? How to roll dice? I'm pretty sure there is no Games (Craps) skill, if you want to "play" it without betting, you need like 5 minutes of familiarity to learn everything there is to know about its rules and strategy outside the betting part. Although I personally do allow Games (Casino Games) for cases where I want a realistic skill connected to them.

I think that may be the other issue getting lost here. GURPS Gambling skill is fundamentally cinematic, not simulationist. It *alters* the odds in favor of drama. When you are rolling against it, it does not matter particularly what the real odds are, the odds you will win in this particular case are set by your skill and whatever modifier the GM assigned to this game. I'd have thought that estimate the odds in any situation bit was a pretty clear tip off this isn't a realistic skill, but apparently not.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by malloyd

What skill is involved *other* than betting the odds?

That's a skill. It's a fairly undemanding skill (and the actual skill is "play a different game"), but it's a skill. A lot of games are to one degree or another solved, and therefore have a skill cap (there's no incredibly obvious way to do that in GURPS, it's basically somewhat like a contest of skill where there's an upper limit to how well either person can roll).

[Not]

I'm not clear how the contest would go. Can I propose a specific case for you all to adjudicate?

Scenario: Character A had Gambling at 15 (IQ+5), B has [Relevant Games Skill] at 15 (IQ+5).

First they play a high stakes game of poker. Then they play a high stakes game of craps.

Do I just do a quick contest of skill to skill, or a regular contest, or does one or the other have to default to one or the other?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Not

I'm not clear how the contest would go. Can I propose a specific case for you all to adjudicate?

Scenario: Character A had Gambling at 15 (IQ+5), B has [Relevant Games Skill] at 15 (IQ+5).

First they play a high stakes game of poker. Then they play a high stakes game of craps.

Do I just do a quick contest of skill to skill, or a regular contest, or does one or the other have to default to one or the other?

Either works. 15 vs. 15 is probably the closest to the RAW.

Personally I'd probably roll two sets of contests, one of Games (B's 15 vs A's default of 6 for the poker hand, for the craps, I'm not convinced there is any skill involved, so I might just flip a coin) to see who wins the game, and one of Gambling (A's 15 vs. B's default of 5) to see who wins the betting.

And yeah, if a different person wins the two contests, that's fine, B wins the hand but gets no money because A folds immediately *is* a valid outcome, though I'd want to grade it somehow. For a long series of games it's no problem, multiply the stake by margin of victory/failure to find your winnings/losses for the day, you can after all lose almost every game and still come out ahead if your only big bet happened to be on the one game you did win, or even lose them all if your bets are all on side issues, rather than who is going to win, and that's the sort of thing Gambling is good at, picking the good bets and passing on the bad ones. If you are going to bet an entire stake on who wins a single game, you're gambling, but not with the Gambling skill, there's no betting strategy involved.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Not

I'm not clear how the contest would go. Can I propose a specific case for you all to adjudicate?

Scenario: Character A had Gambling at 15 (IQ+5), B has [Relevant Games Skill] at 15 (IQ+5).

First they play a high stakes game of poker. Then they play a high stakes game of craps.

Do I just do a quick contest of skill to skill, or a regular contest, or does one or the other have to default to one or the other?

Being really good at the game of poker covers everything but the very basics of the betting part. Gambling is the reverse: it covers the betting part well and the basics of the game rules.

If this were for money I'd require Gambling vs Gambling. The person with Poker at 15 would have to default to Gambling(Poker) (assuming this is a poker match) and hope he has good luck.

I would have Gaming(X) default to Gambling(X) at Gaming(X) - 2, because Gaming (X) should give a knowledge of the odds for the game of X.